Discord Forum Board

Chysery2 months ago

just allow doping in the olympics ahh suggestion

MattB8zerOP2 months ago

doping can be caught

3

DriftSythe2 months ago

snakezy got punished for not knowing how to do a goal that's how it should be

DriftSythe2 months ago

it's just stupid if it was allowed cuz I could just backseat a gold player to guardian just because I'm in vc with them

MattB8zerOP2 months ago

but you could do that anyway? thats what im saying theres just no way to enforce it, how do we know that isnt already happening

Chysery2 months ago

you could do that anyway isnt a reason to make it legal??

DriftSythe2 months ago

because the majority of players aren't people trying to cheat?

3

DriftSythe2 months ago

like I could inject a hack client and you would never know if I didn't want you to know but like 99% of people aren't weirdos who are trying to cheat they just play normally to improve

MattB8zerOP2 months ago

Hmmmm true. Idk though this feels different somehow. Like its cheating but I still guarantee over 25% of people would be doing it

DriftSythe2 months ago

over 25% of people are NOT doing it

MattB8zerOP2 months ago

but thats the thing, you dont know

MattB8zerOP2 months ago

its a good rule

DriftSythe2 months ago

yea you don't know whether over 25% of people are cheating

DriftSythe2 months ago

but it's just soo unlikely

MattB8zerOP2 months ago

dude. people in feinbergs chat gave him comms about aquacorde and he had to tell them to stop. feinberg chatters should know the rules, yet they didnt follow it

MattB8zerOP2 months ago

again not a bad rule but impossible to moderate

Chysery2 months ago

have you seen his chat?? they can hardly read his titles and pinned msgs

DriftSythe2 months ago

better to have a rule with 80% functionality than have no rule at all

DriftSythe2 months ago

feinberg can't really do much because his audience is so large so it's hard to moderate everyone but like also it's feinberg so the majority of backseating advice is gonna be useless the only useful things would be like remembering something or something like that

MattB8zerOP2 months ago(edited)

you even saying 80% still means im likely to lose 1/5

MattB8zerOP2 months ago

for something I have no control over

DriftSythe2 months ago

what is your point

DriftSythe2 months ago

let's say there's a 20% chance of the opponent being a cheater

MattB8zerOP2 months ago

the rule not existing means even playing field

DriftSythe2 months ago

since there is a 1/5 you're likely to lose

Chysery2 months ago

atp it just sounds like he lost a game to someone he thinks was backseated

DriftSythe2 months ago

we should allow cheating

DriftSythe2 months ago

that's basically what you're saying

DriftSythe2 months ago

the logic makes no sense

Chysery2 months ago

no?

DriftSythe2 months ago

it's an even playing field if everyone is cheating

MattB8zerOP2 months ago

THATS WHAT A CALC IS

MattB8zerOP2 months ago

new metas can exist

MattB8zerOP2 months ago

they can come into existence when things arent even

DriftSythe2 months ago

what are we even saying atp

NADDY2 months ago

its the opposite actually

Chysery2 months ago

the meta shouldnt be be friends with a top player, or have a large audience on twitch lmao

blanket addict2 months ago

I do not really want to see the "don't queue unless you have a friend in call" meta

MattB8zerOP2 months ago

its an analogy like the one you made

NADDY2 months ago

someone being backseated by anyone will always have an advantage

DriftSythe2 months ago

^

NADDY2 months ago

over someone who isnt

NADDY2 months ago

which is not an even playing field

NADDY2 months ago

so its the opposite

theghost0032 months ago

This is an insane conversation. The suggestion is “some people are cheating so we have to get everyone to cheat”. This completely destroys the soul of the game. Just because a very small amount of players are breaking the rules means we should fundamentally alter the entire game??

MattB8zerOP2 months ago

you are saying my point

NADDY2 months ago

nope i am saying my point

MattB8zerOP2 months ago

my point is some people doing it is unfair

DriftSythe2 months ago

so WHAT

1

DriftSythe2 months ago

some people cheating is unfair

Chysery2 months ago

YES SO DONT MAKE IT LEGAL

NADDY2 months ago

do you think everyone gets backseated by default when it is legal

DriftSythe2 months ago

that doesn't mean we should allow cheating

MattB8zerOP2 months ago

no but I think more people get backseated than the people who dont at the moment

NADDY2 months ago

id get backseated before it was disallowed it would legit increase my elo by 200

NADDY2 months ago

in that game

noura 🜛2 months ago

i don't think that's true lol

NADDY2 months ago

it was not fair

DriftSythe2 months ago

??

NADDY2 months ago

Source None

theghost0032 months ago

How can you possibly know this

theghost0032 months ago

That is a truly insane statement

DriftSythe2 months ago

OK guys I think more people are using creative mode than the poeple who don't use creative mode in draftout

DriftSythe2 months ago

everyone is just very good at hiding it

DriftSythe2 months ago

everyone is cheating except for me :(

DriftSythe2 months ago

we really should allow cheating

theghost0032 months ago

Totally agree

MattB8zerOP2 months ago

okay. i apologise that you disagree. i just think it needs reconsidering

Emily2 months ago

the topic of backseating has been discussed and considered in immense detail

Emily2 months ago

thats why its specifically banned in comp

MattB8zerOP2 months ago

I see. I did think it was more of a quick decision. I would like it to be looked at again but yeah, if they looked at every possibility and decided it this way then I guess thats fair

Emily2 months ago

it wasnt a quick decision i can promsie that, searching "backseating" in the server can and will lead to numerous convos and arguements xd

1

Emily2 months ago

i doubt itll ever get unbanned outside of specific gimmick tournies (which would be hosted in lobbies which would allow it anyways), as draftout at its core is a 1v1 gamemode, so the team does their best to keep it that way

marvel2 months ago

so coaching

marvel2 months ago

i don't agree with the op btw

DriftSythe2 months ago

not coaching

DriftSythe2 months ago

coaching is giving advice to improve which is currently still allowed in quickplay or lobbies

DriftSythe2 months ago

hard backseating is just telling them exactly what to do

beniibobs2 months ago(edited)

The way I understand it backseating is allowed in lobbies and quickplay, coaching is an umbrella term for helping someone get better, including things like vod review, sharing information and resources, and backseating in quickplay or lobbies

DriftSythe2 months ago

^

marvel2 months ago

yeah coaching means a lot of things including the last bit

marvel2 months ago

i'm thinking midoffs

DriftSythe2 months ago

there is some amount of overlap between the two but they are very distinct

Emily2 months ago

see the cool thing is like, people can still do midoff style tournies because if everyone agrees, you can backseat in lobby games

1

marvel2 months ago

the person you agreed with also agreed coaching can include making live calls/backseating

1

marvel2 months ago

in wow (the game i'm most involved in) it's fully allowed in anything and just considered coaching. again not saying it should be in draftout

marvel2 months ago(edited)

devs have been quite clear about their stance on backseating

DriftSythe2 months ago

I mean it's similar in mcsr ranked as well

DriftSythe2 months ago

but draftout is so decision making based that backseating can be a huge competitive advantage

1

Emily2 months ago

yea the rule of thumb for draftout is that while ur playing a comp match its you vs ur opponent, no outside persons should be assisting in real time

DriftSythe2 months ago

like a mechanically good gold player could probably beat feinberg if they got a few top players backseating them

Emily2 months ago

maybe

Uniquepotatoes2 months ago

its gon be such a horror if any non minecraft streamers try draftout the backseating would be absurd

Uniquepotatoes2 months ago

think of how much people backseat fein and imagine if he was a gold player making constant mistakes

nerb2 months ago

there are to be fair serious issues with the backseating rule imo. it is nigh unenforceable and the way it's phrased is really vague. specifying what is considered punisheable (as opposed to "inconsequential" or "one-off") and what punishments would be enforced would probably help

nerb2 months ago

also like. i'll believe a mechanically skilled gold player with 3 guys yelling in their ears can beat feinberg when i see it. yeah being backseated by a top player would be an advantage but it'd be like a couple hundred elo not a couple thousand

maya2 months ago

i hope we can all understand that "its hard to enforce/its unenforcable" is very bad reasoning for Allowing something

maya2 months ago(edited)

it is a flaw of the rule, sure, that does not automatically make it a reason for Removing the rule from existence

maya2 months ago(edited)

people dont use this logic for more serious forms of cheating so i dont see why its suddenly valid for something that you personally consider to not be "as bad" of a method of* cheating

maya2 months ago

holy i cant type, W

DriftSythe2 months ago

yea like the logic is just inherently flawed, all forms of cheating should just be allowed if the logic is that just because something is hard to enforce/unenforcable it should become allowed

maya2 months ago

not saying backseating shouldnt be reconsidered, but definitely saying that this particular line of reasoning is flawed and not really acceptable

maya2 months ago

i personally want it reconsidered for different reasons. in my case, i learned a lot about minecraft from being backseated by my friends while playing draftout when i was getting into it, before the rule was solidified, and i feel like a lot of joy can be found in sharing/receiving information About the game via your friends

maya2 months ago(edited)

additionally, i dont personally believe the impact of backseating is nearly as detrimental to competitive integrity as what people might expect. execution is just as relevant to beating any given draftout match as the decisions you make, being told what to do and how will still be inherently slower than obtaining the skill to do it yourself

maya2 months ago

and the higher the level of play, the less and less and less influential backseating becomes

maya2 months ago

even at a lower level, getting better at the game yourself by learning more will always impact your winrate far more than listening to someone giving you a line, so people with a drive to improve will still trump backseated players every time, in my eyes

maya2 months ago

i cant think of any level of play where this wouldnt be the case, at least just in terms of how i personally view the game

maya2 months ago(edited)

like personally speaking, this just doesnt seem possible whatsoever to me

1

nerb2 months ago

arguing against my own opinion here but this applies to almost every form of cheating in competitive games. eg unless a cheater is outright spinbotting in cs they'll still lose to higher level players unless they have the game knowledge to back it up.

nerb2 months ago

but i think you're right on just about every other point

maya2 months ago

unfortunately im not rlly seeing how what you said is against my point or disproves it in any way, respectfully ^^;

maya2 months ago

i might just be a brick

maya2 months ago

so feel free to clarify

maya2 months ago

i think the priority when it comes to curbing unfair advantages, first and foremost, is getting rid of the kind of cheating that gives an excessive advantage over just about any player, no matter what, in the case of draftout thats probably something like giving yourself creative mode or whatever

TwoQuantumBits2 months ago

I think the only problem is that this is going to be a slippery slope that might lead to indirect boosting or smurfing

maya2 months ago

and then the next priority would be other smaller but still notable unfair advantages, which i think is a category backseating Could fall under, but i guess im personally arguing that i dont think it does fall under that category

maya2 months ago

i dont see how thats possible

maya2 months ago

boosting and smurfing means someone else is playing on an account that isnt theirs

maya2 months ago

which always has been and im sure Always will be strictly disallowed

maya2 months ago

so to me there is no slippery slope to be had in the first place, boosting and/or smurfing is just strictly against the rules

maya2 months ago

even in a universe where backseating isnt

nerb2 months ago

it's like. a skilled player will usually beat a cheater for any form of cheating as long as it's not insta-win cheating and the cheater isn't already skilled. although a top level player *would* gain next to nothing from backseating, so it is decidedly a different situation

maya2 months ago

yeah idk as someone with a background of competitive fps, i dont think the comparison to counter strike makes any sense. it would if draftout were an entirely mechanics based game, but its far from it. obviously cs isnt JUST mechanics, theres a lot of game sense involved, but the effects of something like aim assist in counter strike would benefit a top player far more than backseating would benefit a top player in draftout

maya2 months ago

i guess the comparison would be more like

maya2 months ago

wallhack or something

maya2 months ago

since wallhacks arent a mechanical assistance, they give you information

maya2 months ago(edited)

but even then i think its still true that that would be a way bigger advantage to said skilled* cs player than backseating is to a skilled draftout player

nerb2 months ago

comparison would be radar here, because in cs with crosshair placement and wallbangs and all walls are essentially a mechanical assist but either way your point stands

maya2 months ago

oh yea good point

maya2 months ago

that would be better than wh

maya2 months ago

as a comparison point

maya2 months ago

same thing tho, yea

maya2 months ago

i think the distinction is Having information you otherwise arent able to have, which backseating doesnt provide

maya2 months ago

the backseater would have to have information about the seed that is otherwise unobtainable, which is just a different form of cheating at that point

Threadfinn2 months ago

Imo asking questions in text channels in this server should be allowed. That is an even playing field since anyone can do it. Also, it keeps happening anyway and we still answer their questions even though I know that if someone has the new to the server leaf, if they ask how to do sniper duel they probably are in a game right now.

Threadfinn2 months ago

But 1on1 backseating in a call is definitely unfair.

Threadfinn2 months ago

Also you can just ask genai to get similar results as asking in general.

DriftSythe2 months ago

I think someone like edcr or lowkey backseated by like snakezy and mongey could beat feinberg

maya2 months ago

even if this was a realistic hypothetical, which i dont think it is, but assuming it was, i still dont even believe this is true necessarily

maya2 months ago

which might sound like a hot take given how big these names are, but i think feinberg already being able to do it without being told a line is already just inherently faster than just getting some players with decently better mechs and putting other peoples brains behind their gameplay

maya2 months ago

like i dont think you would have even close to the same ability to overlap things if being backseated entirely like edcr or lowkey functionally would be (assuming their knowledge Only spans speedrunning and nothing else)

maya2 months ago

if that makes any sense

DriftSythe2 months ago

steez was able to beat hax while being backseated by rowl pretty sure

DriftSythe2 months ago

similar concept just extrapolated I think it's probable

maya2 months ago(edited)

i definitely dont think its impossible or improbable

maya2 months ago

but i genuinely believe feinberg still beats them 9 times outta 10

maya2 months ago(edited)

i think having seperate mechanics and brains and just combining them is not nearly as good as having one brain that can fluidly combine both

Uniquepotatoes2 months ago

i think that is a very extreme example lmao even getting 500 elo from backseating is insane

Uniquepotatoes2 months ago

and thats gold to diamond

Uniquepotatoes2 months ago

gold to feinberg is 1300 elo

jamerrq2 months ago

this would only benefit streamers, normal people (the vast majority) playing alone at home will be in disadvantage

marvel2 months ago

as a new player/gold player/good player at other games i'm pretty confident i could get to diamond with someone in my ear but fuck no i'm not beating feinberg even the best players can't beat feinberg LMAO

isawabelle2 months ago

this can always be done after the game happens, in quickplay or in lobbies. there's so many places for this that it doesn't need to be in comp, and giving people who are able to get a friend in call to help them play or stream to a large audience a big advantage is just a terrible idea imo

Uniquepotatoes2 months ago

also streamers could just ask viewers to join lobbies with them if they wanna get backseated

isawabelle2 months ago

giving feedback on matches for improving at the game after the actual match is common in a lot of comp games, and i dont see why in draftout specifically it would have to happen during the actual game

elephant2 months ago

well as an entirely separate issue atm there's no real way to replay or see what choices both players made with draftout

maya2 months ago

not nearly as easy to absorb if it happens after the game, to be completely honest

maya2 months ago

i also just still disagree that its a sizeable enough advantage to actually meaningfully impact the average game, to be honest

maya2 months ago

is it objectively An advantage? yes. so is having better hardware, or less distractions, etc etc
i dont think most of the people streaming draftout would get a particularly large advantage from having chatters tell them what to do

maya2 months ago

that is at least backed up by my own personal experience being backseated, it didnt make me any better i just learned while i was playing lol

maya2 months ago

nd it definitely didnt give me an advantage over my opponents who already knew wtf was going on in the first place

Uniquepotatoes2 months ago

all im saying is

Uniquepotatoes2 months ago

your backseaters werent good enough

Uniquepotatoes2 months ago

i fully believe i could backseat any like gold 3 player to a diamond level and im not even diamond

pinkpuff2 months ago

lets put this to the test, i volunteer as the gold 3 aga

pinkpuff2 months ago

[JOKE, I HAVE NO INTENTION OF CHEATING] #mediatrained

Uniquepotatoes2 months ago

haha yes i love humor aga

!

MattB8zerOP2 months ago

I suppose this was my main point, is that this could be happening and there is just no way to prove it. I know it is not in the spirit of the game, but it bothers me a lot, and honestly I think it would be super fun to backseat people at all. I understand however after 30 downvotes and 15 people telling me it's a bad idea that it won't happen but I wasn't even asking for it to be fully overturned, just reconsidered. Idk tho. I have a hard time getting my point across and my point here is probably invalid anyway but I still think it is worth bringing up even just one more time

Uniquepotatoes2 months ago

people dont want to feel at a disadvantage for not being backseated

MattB8zerOP2 months ago

Yeah. Neither would I. We agree on that but for different reasons. I know it probably sounds like I'm salty over losing but I will take my losses and say that I made mistakes. All I'm saying other than that is it could be the case that any opponent you have is being reminded what to do, and you have no way to show that. People would probably stop queuing alone but genuinely it might end up making just a different communal atmosphere surrounding the game, like in ranked. There would always be vcs to join to be helped and you could always ask people in the server or just friends. It would be a change in how it's played, but I genuinely think it could be beneficial to the community and the gameplay as a whole.

Reconsider Backseating