Discord Forum Board

DriftSytheOP3 months ago

also probably should mention mooshrooms, llamas, and mules as they also have the same leather drop rates even if it's very rare for them to have a signifcant impact

Tacomonster3 months ago

w tech breeding horse and donkey for mule and force feeding so you get more leather

15

Lightning3 months ago

bump

Elag4223 months ago

works with literally just normal cows/horse/donkey btw

DriftSytheOP3 months ago

but if it's NOT standardized across mobs what if the next 10 cows horses and donkeys all drop 0 leather but the next mule drops 2 and you really need the put item frame in item frame goal??

Elag4223 months ago

https://tenor.com/view/of-course-gif-21373815

Of Course GIF - Of Course - Discover & Share GIFs

sugaarush3 months ago

the horses and donkeys are dead so where does the mule come from?

SOOT3 months ago

You can breed them before killing them

sugaarush3 months ago

ohh right

sugaarush3 months ago

yea this is why i’m not diamond 1

sugaarush3 months ago

this development will be implemented in my next game

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

bump

beniibobs2 months ago

it would kinda be weird to single leather out for this tho, for example string is the same situation between cats, spiders and cave spiders. maybe you’d be in favour of standardising those two but it seems weird to me if it’s inconsistent just because leather comes up slightly more

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

the reason I brought it up for leather is because it's quite often that you see multiple leather mobs so you make the decision to go for one of the two
for example you choose to kill the cow instead of horse when item frame in item frame is on the board but it ends up that the cow drops 0 while the horse drops 2 you lose the goal simply due to rng if your opponent chooses to kill the horse
you're not really frequently faced with the decision of do I kill the cat or do I kill the spider which is why I think it's not as relevant for other drops such as string. I'm not saying that it's something that shouldn't be standardized it's just something I haven't really thought about tbh

8

sugaarush2 months ago

i’m rly not sure why this hasn’t been implemented yet lol

closure2 months ago

I would agree with this suggestion if horses and cows had the same hp, but since it takes more time to kill a horse, it could be a VP to try and go for the "suboptimal" play if you know you're behind on an early game leather goal

closure2 months ago(edited)

I think this runs into the same issue as the now-removed chest loot rework in that it's not vanilla and removes an element of skill, although on a much smaller scale

1

closure2 months ago

Also you could VP around tame horse for the same thing in reverse where you're sacking tame horse to possibly get more leather

beniibobs2 months ago

I was gonna mention something like that. If you and your opponent are equidistant to a horse and a cow, and theres no positional benefit to either, cow is the best choice and horse is a vp

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

yea but what if the horse is closer and the time to kill them is the same

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

the vp of choosing which mob to kill should only change the amount of time it takes to kill said mob, you’re not making that vp based on drop rates because it’s completely rng and you don’t have any previous information about the leather drop rates for each mob

1

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

I don’t really understand what skill is being removed tbh. For chest loot you get feedback for when a person gets certain items or enters a certain area through advancements so you’re able to metagame off that, I don’t really see how you could metagame leather drops with the current system because you don’t really know what mobs your opponent has killed

1

Threadfinn2 months ago

You do potentially know which mobs they killed though. At least for earlygame, say there's a cow 50 blocks to the left and a horse 50 blocks to the right. If you go towards the cow and it doesn't drop, then your opponent gets item frame goal you know they went the other way. Could also apply to pack spawns of either mob type for all the dyed leather armor goals. It's definitely more minor than a lot of the chest loot cases, but it's similar to any seed with 2 of the same structure near spawn.

SOOT2 months ago

They could’ve just gotten a cow you didn’t/couldnt see

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

yea I think it’s a lot less relevant and a lot more guesswork involved compared to the chest loot being standardized based on order, I think there is some skill involved in some niche scenarios but overall I do think the benefits of this change outweigh the small amount of skill expression that it would remove

Threadfinn2 months ago

Then you still know they went the other way and found 2 cows, unless you're standing on top of a 2nd cow not seeing it

Threadfinn2 months ago

I don't want igloos standardized, but I lost a game because the igloo I saw off spawn didn't have a basement and my opponent went to one that did.

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

you can pie for sign for igloos with basements and idrk how that’s relevant at all here

Threadfinn2 months ago

I mean you can but if you see an igloo, check pie and see sign you assume it has a basement, most of the time you would lose a race if you tried to pie ray for it.

Threadfinn2 months ago

I just think there's a lot of rng things that draftout shouldn't modify even if they can change who wins a goal. Like for a 5 foods race one player might kill pig while the other kills cow, and if the pug doesn't drop they just lose the goal.

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

first of all it’s really unlikely for there to be 2 igloos right beside spawn where spending 5 seconds to check the pie loses you the race

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

second of all how is that in any way related to leather drops

Threadfinn2 months ago

Also I don't think this leather change would be that relevant, it actually changing anything would be rare.

toast2 months ago

okay but its still good lol

Threadfinn2 months ago

Same as me killing cows but my opponent killed horses, we both thought we found the fastest source but one got rolled

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

you can’t use piechart to determine which animal drops leather and which doesn’t

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

I’ve seen multiple games won/lost due to inconsistent leather drops

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

there are so many leather goals that I think it’s relevant

Threadfinn2 months ago

But you can see which one is closer/easier to kill. It's extremely rare that the choice is identical, sometimes the worse choice does win though.

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

it doesn’t always have to be exactly identical there could a pack of horses 100 blocks in a direction and a pack of cows 100 blocks in another direction

Threadfinn2 months ago

So then cows are objectively correct with no other information, they die faster and drop food.

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

as long as the rough time to kill and amount of mobs is the same choosing one over the other is just a gamble if you exclude external features

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

ok then the horses are like 80 blocks

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

like these are just dumb hypotheticals imo

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

I don’t really see a strong argument so far on why the implementation would be bad other than “it’s not vanilla rng”

Threadfinn2 months ago

Gambles exist in lots of other ways too though, maybe you both spot a large cave entrance so you both go for those goals, one cave is full of ores and the other just dies. Sometimes that's a skill issue but sometimes it's just rng who got a luckier cave.

Threadfinn2 months ago

It's mainly just weird to be fixing one small part of vanilla rng when there's so many others that can't/won't be fixed.

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

it’s a lot easier to standardize leather drops than caves

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

and there’s a lot more skill expression in things like exploration and finding caves

Threadfinn2 months ago

But what about other mob drops? String, bones, arrows all have multiple sources. I guess you could standardize all skeleton variants to have the same drops too just nobody suggested it.

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

like I said before I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad idea I just haven’t considered it because it’s a lot less likely you’re choosing to kill between 2 mobs that have the string or arrow drops, while you’re often faced with that decision regarding leather in plains biomes

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

there are probably more leather goals than those that require string or arrows probably

Threadfinn2 months ago

I counted 7/8 leather goals, 13 string goals, definitely less for bones/arrows but still a few, unless you count bones for some of the food goals. But yeah string usually has less random decision on which mob to kill, in swamp/desert though the bones/arrows could matter especially since spawns are random.

maskers2 months ago

didn't know looting doesn't affect cats

maskers2 months ago

i think string would also be nice for sure, i've thought about it during a game when a cat dropped 0 string

DriftSytheOP2 months ago(edited)

I do think that would be a separate discussion from this but I don’t think it’s a bad idea

GracefulBeauty2 months ago(edited)

leather is different because there are so many early game goals in particular that require leather, and multiple sources of leather are available at that time

GracefulBeauty2 months ago(edited)

so it's very likely that both players will be playing for the same leather goal at the same time, before their lines have diverged. this is when rng is most likely to flip a goal

GracefulBeauty2 months ago(edited)

there are string goals but they're not as early game, and cats vs spiders aren't available at the same time in the game, so you're not really choosing between them

2

GracefulBeauty2 months ago(edited)

standardized bone/arrow drops from skeleton vs bogged vs stray and rotten flesh drops from zombie vs drowned vs husk would also be nice though

closure2 months ago

If their lines haven't diverged, wouldn't they be killing the same animals? And at that point would it not be a routing problem to try and kill the cows first because it's faster?

closure2 months ago

Or like it's more nuanced than that, but if two groups of spawns are in different directions, playing a different direction can lead to different tempo for rest of the early game

GracefulBeauty2 months ago

yeah, the pathing line might diverge before the goal line

closure2 months ago

But like if one of them played the pathing line differently shouldn't that be a factor in who wins the goal?

GracefulBeauty2 months ago(edited)

yes, but right now playing different paths means that rng may become the determining factor instead of whose pathing was better

Fox4 🦊2 months ago

I think it would be good to do this for other mob drops as well, so that you don't start killing different mobs just for variance

Fox4 🦊2 months ago

So it could be standardized with cats and spiders, bogged strays parcheds and skeletons, creepers and ghasts

Fox4 🦊2 months ago

Plus it wouldn't make that much sense to be just for leather

Threadfinn2 months ago

I don't think rng needs to be standardized, I feel like that's just part of draftout that sometimes you lose a goal even if you do nothing wrong. But it's rare that one rng goal is the real decider of match.
If you play the entire match where every goal you have a 55% chance of winning and your opponent has a 45% chance, you win the match overall 69% of the time.
If you play every goal with a strat that has a 75% chance of working, you have a 99% chance of winning the match.
Say you lose a goal at the start to pure rng (kill horse vs cow, drank wrong one of the 2 sus stews in the chest, etc) and play the rest of the match only 10% better than your opponent, you have a 60% chance of winning, 20% better than your opponent.
If you're already up 10-5, even if every following goal is a coinflip you have a 95% chance to win.
Yes if it's 12-12 and last goal is xp bottle, and you're both already in a large ocean looking for ships it's a 50-50 who wins, but you have to consider that for it to be 12-12 the first 96% of the match you played equally. The same applies to the first goal on the board, maybe your opponent won the 50-50 and got item frame first for a 1-0 lead, but if you lose BECAUSE of that one goal then you didn't play the other 24 goals any better than your opponent.

Threadfinn2 months ago

Overall routing and decision making to get the best chance at as many goals as possible will almost always win over just getting lucky, even if the lucky player wins some goals because of it.

Threadfinn2 months ago

And how far do you want to go with standardization? Like the sus stew example I gave there, what if poison is on the board and you both go to the same ship off spawn, with 2 sus stews in the chest? One player might get there 1.5 seconds earlier but lose the goal because they drank the other stew than their opponent. This probably could be standardized but would be very difficult for something that very rarely decides a match outcome.

SOOT2 months ago

Just because there are some luck elements that can’t be removed doesn’t mean we should keep the ones that can

GracefulBeauty2 months ago

clearly we want rng to be standardized to some degree, otherwise we wouldn't put both players on the same seed

Threadfinn2 months ago

For leather I think worst case scenario is there's item frames, bookshelf, colored leather boots. Off spawn there's a 4 pack of cows and a 4 pack of horses in opposite directions, both with sugarcane. Assuming the 0.015% chance that all four cows drop 8 leather while all 4 horses drop 0, there's still only a 2 goal diff with one leather goal left on the board that the behind player now has an advantage on because they still have cows available to kill. Far more often the difference will come down to the fact that horses take twice as long to kill, so the cow player gets more time.

Threadfinn2 months ago

If you're on different seeds then every available decision is entirely different between players, so between two players of even remotely similar skill it will be a 50-50 on most goals. On the same seed rng still fully exists, but even if 10 goals every match are a 50-50 the better play will usually win by winning more of th 15 skill based goals.

Threadfinn2 months ago

I think part of the skill in draftout is quickly pivoting to a new task after losing to rng.

GracefulBeauty2 months ago

better player would win >50% of the time on different seeds too

Threadfinn2 months ago

Yeah but it'll be closer to a 50-50

GracefulBeauty2 months ago

yeah and rn it's ever so slightly closer to a 50-50 than if leather was standardized between different mobs

GracefulBeauty2 months ago

point is we're already standardizing some things and not standardizing other things, the line is drawn somewhere

Threadfinn2 months ago

I just don't think it makes sense to only standardize leather, and I don't think it even affects anything if it is standardized.

Threadfinn2 months ago

It is an easier fix than other standardizations, but there's other things that matter so much more.

GracefulBeauty2 months ago

it's up to dev team to prioritize based on impact and difficulty

Threadfinn2 months ago

Different trial chambers can affect multiple goals, different hostile mob/fish spawns can affect a lot of goals, mob wandering can affect some goals. These are pure rng, but there's also decision rng where both players make a different decision at the beginning that leads to differences later. I think more often in an example where two players go different directions to get a different leather source, while the outcome of the leather goal might be decided by rng, the outcome of the match will be decided by the difference in their positioning immediately after the goal.

Threadfinn2 months ago

Also I'm pretty sure the line is currently just vanilla in terms of standardization. Since 1.20 all loot tables are seed based, it being in the "about draftout" is just redundancy I think.

GracefulBeauty2 months ago

not quite: https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1524131337353560248/1524131337353560248

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

ok then what's to say you shouldn't remove rng standardization in the other direction

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

let's remove mob drop standardization as a whole and make it random for both you and your opponent as it increases the skill in managing rng

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

if you think rng shouldn't be standardized at all that would just make the game less competitive

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

managing rng is a huge skill in draftout but I think there's no reason to not standardize something when it's really relevant and pops up multiple times and implementing the standardization removes little to no skill expression

imri12732 months ago

Bump

imri12732 months ago

Bump

imri12732 months ago

Bump

imri12732 months ago

Bump

imri12732 months ago

Bump

EliteMaster2 months ago

i only agree bc there are multiple sources to get leather and multiple mobs that drop leather tbh. If it was a single mob I think its better to leave rng as is

sugaarush2 months ago

guys they’re already said they’re considering it in #roadmap

sugaarush2 months ago

no need to bump lol

imri12732 months ago

Bump

imri12732 months ago

Bump

imri12732 months ago

Bump

imri12732 months ago

Bump

Fox4 🦊2 months ago

Bro

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

can we ban this guy

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

half of his messages on the server are “bump”

Arxyj2 months ago

i would love this if they had same health. But with it being different i dont thing its natural thing to do

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

their health doesn’t affect their drops

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

sure they have different health and it takes a different amount of time to kill them but that’s not really relevant to the point of the suggestion imo

beniibobs2 months ago

Did it ever used to say you couldn’t bump suggestions in https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1506863749053681825 or am I imagining that? Did r0hkx just say it once when it actually happened or something and that’s what I’m imagining?

DriftSytheOP2 months ago(edited)

like if the cows are slightly farther then the net killing time is the same

DriftSytheOP2 months ago

no clue tbh I just bumped after 2 weeks because there was no discussion about it whatsoever and I wanted to hear differing opinions about it

awesomeSallad2 months ago(edited)

I bumped something on like day 2 of the server and r0hkx said people shouldn’t be bumping things

awesomeSallad2 months ago

so not an official rule but something advised against

1

beniibobslast month

I think if this were to be implemented it would be nice for consistency to apply it across other mobs with the same drop rates. Spider eyes from spiders and cave spiders etc.

SOOTlast month

Bones from the different skeleton variants too