Discord Forum Board

Tacomonster3 months ago

breaking bedrock officially allowed?

r0hkxOP3 months ago

yes

Tacomonster3 months ago

i feel like you should announce that rather than making updates to the website nobody will notice lol

maskers3 months ago

https://discord.com/channels/1056779246728658984/1489982255442034765 stealing justin's rankedcord post, imo the same applies to draftout and the launchers shouldn't have to be whitelisted

beniibobs3 months ago

Is allowing ninjabrain bot just a continuation of the existing rules or does it resolve the discussion in https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1509101969342468146

r0hkxOP3 months ago

i wanted to incentivize/reward people for actually reading the rules, and since breaking bedrock isn't a major thing i didn't bother posting about it separately, but yeah if it were anything more important i would have included it in the announcements post. future changes like that will get standalone announcements as well

1

r0hkxOP3 months ago

this is planned but i think for now though sticking to src launcher rules (and just not enforcing them) is easier

maskers3 months ago

there should probably be something about toxicity/etc in in game chat

r0hkxOP3 months ago

no, this is not a resolution. ninbot was and is still allowed in draftout, and its just formally written down now. banning ninbot is still very much on the table, but these rules kinda needed to exist first so we would have a good way of actually documenting it if it did get banned

1

r0hkxOP3 months ago

yeah it should. i intentionally didn't include it in this first version cause i wanted to focus on gameplay and get the rules out fast (and im not really the person that should/would be deciding rules for chat conduct idt). so for now the in game chat rules just implicitly follow from the discord server rules i guess, but chat conduct rules will be added at some point

maskers3 months ago

https://mc.sr/mods/?version=1.21.11 instead of https://mc.sr/mods ? people will likely get confused seeing 1.16.1 mods when opening the website

r0hkxOP3 months ago

oh thats a good shout

EliteMaster3 months ago

is asking someone in call for a recipe or wiki info allowed (not backseating, but explicitly u asking them about info)

beniibobs3 months ago

If it’s relevant to the current match, my understanding is that that is backseating and not allowed

aliasaal3 months ago

i have hearing problem
my left ear is disabled
i can NOT follow sound via headphone
if i want to find lava pool or cave under the ground i have to be lucky only
please allow sound visualizer mod

beniibobs3 months ago

Subtitles?

r0hkxOP3 months ago

please make a new thread for this

aliasaal3 months ago

its not good as it suppose to

maskers3 months ago

is that fence gate nether roof thing allowed

aliasaal3 months ago

ahh i dont know how sorry

r0hkxOP3 months ago

this is more of a gray area, but generally this would not be allowed

r0hkxOP3 months ago

follows from speedrun.com and so uh

r0hkxOP3 months ago

no

r0hkxOP3 months ago(edited)

but like also idk its weird cause it probably should be allowed, but its a new glitch that isn't explicitly allowed so it isn't, but like also if people just start doing it it would probably become de facto allowed anyways so we should probably just allow it for draftout

EliteMaster3 months ago

ofc i was just curious, because if so then it shud specify and emphasize that only the player is allowed to manually look up info and no one else yk?

r0hkxOP3 months ago

the rule is exactly

Following from the speedrun ruleset, manually looking up information about an individual goal during a match, or using the Minecraft or Draftout wikis during a match, is allowed.

i wouldn't really consider having someone else look up the info for you to be "manual" but you are right that this case should be clarified

EliteMaster3 months ago

yea i get that

r0hkxOP3 months ago

its a weird case though cause backseating is allowed for speedrunning, but like also probably shouldn't be

beniibobs3 months ago

r0hkx it might be an idea to add a new ‘rules’ tag for suggestions following this

EliteMaster3 months ago

oh i didnt know that lol

r0hkxOP3 months ago

i thought about it but anything that falls under that tag should probably be in this thread, and if its something like allowing a new mod or glitch, it should be its own thread with the gameplay tag

1

7rowl3 months ago

is there a clip showing it

r0hkxOP3 months ago

maybe though, if there is a need for it ill add a rules tag

maskers3 months ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_-IA33Dnxg

DRWHOCOBY

Glitching Through Bedrock With a Ladder and Gate

Accidentally discovered by @ADHDIIncarnate while playtesting

1

r0hkxOP3 months ago

you beat me

7rowl3 months ago

does that work by making you crawl on top of fence gate? or whats the exact mechanic here

7rowl3 months ago(edited)

oh they explain it in the video im a brick

maskers3 months ago

something about not abusing bugs within the mod?

maskers3 months ago

like idk, joining the practice map at the same time as the match starts so you get tp'd to it
i made this up but if it were real i don't think its covered in rules right now

r0hkxOP3 months ago

oh thats another good point

golem3 months ago

https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1495250345625128970/1514626070588948621

golem3 months ago

Prob what happened here

awesomeSallad3 months ago

common drwhocoby w (please allow this)

.reixyz3 months ago(edited)

i think backseating isn't that big of a deal
firstly it's allowed in most games such as league of legends or whatever bc it would be impossible to enforce
secondly it's not really going to mess with ladder integerity long term, most people getting backseat aren't using it for 15 games straight for the sole purpose of climbing- the friend doing the backseating wouldn't go along with that. usually it's a one or two off coaching session in the spirit of improvements; forcing this interaction that will likely happen anyway to simply been done privately instead soft kills community

usually for things like this there is one ruleset for ladder and one for lan / tournament where rules like this are more enforcable. if anything league of legends is going the opposite direction and considering allowing coaches into the comms of pro games while they happen.

you'd have to consider who this is actually harming / helping and the way backseating normally plays outs for the average user is prob a net positive. Mechanics and the interfacing delay between coach and player while the player interprets things being said will always be a gating factor anyway.

If anything this just kills the 1 to 3 feinberg coaches ludwig on draftout youtube vids we would've otherwise gotten and is overall bad for the game to sweat something so low impact. No one is going to be sitting in call infinitely.

7rowl3 months ago

backseating is a big deal for draftout and makes a huge difference for matches. it is not comparable to other games. allowing backseating would drastically decrease the quality of matchmaking for lower ranks

1

Lila3 months ago

so much about draftout is decision making that at the point where you're getting backseated most of the game's challenges are played by your coach and not the player

2

.reixyz3 months ago

thats fair

.reixyz3 months ago

just had some counter points in my head

7rowl3 months ago(edited)

quickplay has less tight rules and if you want to be backseated for learning, you can use that as a learning ground

1

.reixyz3 months ago

oh i didn't even thikn of that

r0hkxOP3 months ago

usually it's a one or two off coaching session in the spirit of improvements

this can happen in quick play

overall i like half agree, but i think in draftout, backseating is just a massive advantage. ive played a few matches with someone backseating (before it was banned) and it probably made me play like 500 elo above my actual rank

even if the person backseating isn't that skilled themselves, just having someone you can delegate the high level routing so you can just focus on micro stuff makes the game 1000 times easier

Tacomonster3 months ago

yeah ive noticed that while watching a stream like feinberg its 100x easier to find things in the routing whereas while im playing im too focused on the gameplay

7rowl3 months ago(edited)

also "spectator buff" is a really big deal. every single match you play you dont realize / notice things immediately and forget a lot of things. the person who is backseating can manage all of that a lot easier, if you have multiple people, that would essentially mean you won't ever forget to frontload things or do certain goals

7rowl3 months ago(edited)

and a huge part of being good at draftout is remembering goals, re-reading the board, frontloading things for the future etc.

1

.reixyz3 months ago

okay good points guys

.reixyz3 months ago

i like to argue for the sake of it tbh sometimes hopefully i didn't step on any toes

r0hkxOP3 months ago

its good to discuss for sure

1

maskers3 months ago

i feel like itd be good to clarify that googling & stuff is allowed here

r0hkxOP3 months ago

Following from the speedrun ruleset, manually looking up information about an individual goal during a match, or using the Minecraft or Draftout wikis during a match, is allowed.

1

maskers3 months ago

o

r0hkxOP3 months ago

in the external tools and resources section

maskers3 months ago

mb

r0hkxOP3 months ago

it might be worth adding that at the top as well but yeah its there

maskers3 months ago

yeah i was expecting it in the same place as backseating

oGarfield3 months ago

I personally dont like the "No backseatting rule", you're allowed to backseat people in 90% of competitive games if you're in a vc with friends, in a tournament scenario this is totally different of course and should not be allowed

Its also impossible to control this rule when most people will not be streaming, theres no physical way you can prove someone is getting backseated or not if they're not recording/streaming
This will just give potential advantages to people who are not streaming vs people who are

r0hkxOP3 months ago

i found the specific match btw, it was one of my first times playing draftout and roobley was backseating me, i beat fyroah 13-9 (and i also died and made a ton of micro mistakes and roobley also made some macro mistakes)

maskers3 months ago

this will just give potential advantages

allowing it will give an advantage to people who have someone who can backseat them though?

r0hkxOP3 months ago(edited)

r0hkxOP3 months ago

oGarfield3 months ago

Yeah but disallowing it wont do anything if theres no way of proving that someone is getting backseated, I dont expect the average player to stream their games, and the average player can also be in vc with friends and screensharing and getting advice/getting teached how to do something

7rowl3 months ago

I do not agree with "how do you enforce this rule" argument because all of the rules are not 100% enforceable. There are always ways to circumvent them and remain unpunished. By breaking rules you run at the risk of getting severely punished and wasting your future opportunities (to play the game at all and participate in tournaments) and thats the main reason preventing people from breaking them

7rowl3 months ago(edited)

"There are no ways to prevent all of cheating and players can gain advantage therefore its futile to try and stop it"?

r0hkxOP3 months ago

the problem of enforcement with any particular rule is valid, but at the same time there is just no way to have a fully enforceable ruleset. the rules exist to provide a level playing field for those who want to play legitimately, not to eliminate cheating

oGarfield3 months ago

I agree that the "you cant enforce this rule" is a bad argument from me, but I just think it works when its something as casual as Backseatting, I think the average player will play comp for fun while screensharing to their friends, its just natural

7rowl3 months ago(edited)

If the rule existing will prevent at least some % of people from doing it and create an overall culture inside the community that is already a great net positive in my opinion

1

oGarfield3 months ago

I see this with friends from different communities that have never/barely touched the MCSR scene, playing in vcs and playing while screensharing, happens with a lot of other games too, its especially nice if the person is just getting into the game

oGarfield3 months ago

Thats fair

r0hkxOP3 months ago

in this common case, the friends should not give advice or info about the match, and the person playing should deafen or stop screensharing if they do. its the exact same thing as stream sniping, its common that ill pull up the opponents stream if my friend queues them, and when i do that ill just mute during the match

maskers3 months ago(edited)

i agree that's its not a great situation but imo allowing backseating would definitely be worse

2

EliteMaster3 months ago

also maybe some clause about streaming/backseating (like usimg chat for help and stuff) could be good?

beniibobs3 months ago(edited)

it explicitly mentions twitch chat

r0hkxOP3 months ago(edited)

In Competitive matches, backseating, coaching, or otherwise giving or receiving advice or information relevant to an ongoing match is not allowed. This can be from a friend in call, stream chat, or anywhere else.

EliteMaster3 months ago

Oh mb idk how i missed that

OrangePixel3 months ago

Also allowing back seating would give a massive advantage for streamers who always have people to backseat them

2

maskers3 months ago

i don't feel like it's reasonable to expect someone to deafen or whatever
the same issue is with streaming, i wouldn't force someone to not read chat during games

maskers3 months ago

oh missed the

if they do

r0hkxOP3 months ago

yeah for streamers the expectation is that they will moderate their chat to remove backseating chat messages

1

7rowl3 months ago

I've been watching mongey and feinberg a lot and generally people moderate the chat / chat knows etiquette at this point

oGarfield3 months ago

Its a lot easier for big streamers to manage their chat to have no backseating

oGarfield3 months ago

since more mods and they're more active

oGarfield3 months ago

and easy to miss anyways cause a lot of msgs

r0hkxOP3 months ago

if you're a smaller streamer or don't have any mods, and someone starts backseating in chat, you should tell them to stop or time them out

beniibobs3 months ago

you can just have in your chat rules "no backseating" and if u see someone backseating you can say "im not reading chat because someone is backseating" i guess

EliteMaster3 months ago

yea no one is forcing u to read chst tbh

7rowl3 months ago

One off or inconsequential cases will usually not be punished, but repeated or extreme cases will

7rowl3 months ago

If that is your concern

oGarfield3 months ago

Ye ik im just saying in general

Torca3 months ago

What's the verdict on the fence gate through bedrock glitch?

r0hkxOP3 months ago

currently it is not allowed

1

r0hkxOP3 months ago

its not an explicitly allowed glitch, so by default its not allowed

9_g3 months ago

On backseating

9_g3 months ago

Rules that struggle to be enforced generally apply to things the perpetrator has to actively go out of their way to achieve, cheating, exploiting, seed finding, glitches. Where as having a friend comment on your game is so common place, enforcement of it feels unnatural and greatly unachievable.

It also feels incredibly restrictive. If I was a new player and I join my friends call to stream the game, and they go "oh you can stream it, but we can't talk about it any capacity, and also you can't ask us questions about it" this to me feels terrible. It feels so awkward having to actively avoid conversation in fear of potential backseating. People naturally like to talk about each others games, this is common human nature and I think discouraging it is harmful.

Draftout is quite new. There is a large learning curve. When players are not experienced, when the game is not understood, when things are still foreign, is it not expected that backseating will have a larger impact? I think back seating now will have a far smaller impact than it did in closed beta, and in a month it will have even less.

Draftout is unique to other games in that the amount of information overload is a test of decision making that is very difficult. However a game such as Teamfight Tactics is solely decision making with no mechanics whatsoever and backseating does not have complications there. If a challenger wanted to backseat a silver player, it would just be a challenger playing, at least in draftout, the mechanics, reaction time and movement would still be the same regardless of backseating. TFT also has the same manner of spectator buff, even top players will tunnel vision and miss things that a spectator will pick up on easily.

I think the lower ranks and "casual" playerbase are the ones who suffer more if they can't talk to their friends about the game they are playing. How does backseating detrimentally affect their quality of games?

9_g3 months ago

I would advocate for allowing backseating and then seeing how the cards fall. Or perhaps changing the wording to "Excessive backseating.. is not allowed" e.g in closed beta we had 4 people backseating nix to get him a win, and he still lost, he did win a couple after tho. But that level of backseating is clearly too much, but I also doubt that it would occur very often, because who has the time and effort for that.

2

9_g3 months ago

thanks for coming to my ted talk, i love draftout

pinkpuff3 months ago

i kind of agree. its really lame to see people try to backseat in top level players' streams but it kind of feels like a non issue in lower level gameplay, at least while we're still in beta. dont know what the right solution is either though

r0hkxOP3 months ago

the main response i have to this would be to just play quickplay

r0hkxOP3 months ago

im not familiar with tft but i think the main difference between other games and draftout is that in draftout, the in game leaderboard is proportionally far more important compared to other competitive games or esports

9_g3 months ago

tft has phase points and lcqs based on ladder placements, it is seperated by region though

9_g3 months ago

idk what draftout does

overpm3 months ago

ban zoom macro (assuming that nbb will get banned)

as far as i understand the only good reason for it to be allowed is the ninjabrain bot, so i believe they should get banned together

r0hkxOP3 months ago

out of bounds resizing will probably get banned if ninbot gets banned i think

2

Shafin3 months ago

I feel like backseating would be more of a probleme in lower levels no? (as a lower level player) keeping track of goals and what you need for them is a skill that both players will struggle with and will need to build over time. But if one person is being backseated the other is not, the amount of mental load that one person has will be drastically less than the other player. Not saying that someone looking over your gameplay and helping isn't helpful to your learning but as mentioned quickplay is there for that. It seems really bad for competitive though. I agree it's hard to enforce but we should at least be discouraging the behavior.

maskers3 months ago

imo the rules should be linked here too, not just at the bottom of the website where people will probably never see them

7

EliteMaster3 months ago

this might not be the right place, but maybe a way to play a full match unranked but still comp? i feel like qp is too short to actually learn from and playing a full match without the worry to lose elo would help a lot. You could do lobby, but I would like the ability to queue someone rather than trying to find someone free and willing to help you at your level yk?

EliteMaster3 months ago

That way coaching could be more useful snd helpful for new learners

r0hkxOP3 months ago

quickplay is the closest thing

r0hkxOP3 months ago

in theory it would nice to have a unranked mode that is identical to competitive, but that would likely split the playerbase too much

pinkpuff3 months ago

Yeah i just more mean its less serious in like, gold i . It's all just for fun anyway idrc if my opponent is in a call with friends but i understand why people are against it and its def easier to just blanket ban it so wtv

oGarfield3 months ago

this pretty much explains my thoughts about it too

oGarfield3 months ago

didnt really deep dive into it when i first talked about it but thats a good way to express it

7rowl3 months ago

I think you are misinterpeting the exact wording of the rule

7rowl3 months ago

and so do most people

7rowl3 months ago

One off or inconsequential cases will usually not be punished, but repeated or extreme cases will.
This rule does not apply to Quick Play.

7rowl3 months ago

I think this should just answer all of your concerns about new players and cases of backseating that you cannot control

7rowl3 months ago

Please read the rules before discussing them

9_g3 months ago

Forgive me for misinterpreting, how I interpreted that phrasing was as such, “minor cases that are accidental and not impactful will be dismissed” did you infact mean that backseating and commenting on friends games is allowed provided it’s not excessive and has low consequences?

I like to follow rules, and I would like to hear a confirmation that it is allowed as the wording seems confusing. If it is allowed, may I suggest changing the wording, as you say, it seems most people would misinterpret it.

If it isn't allowed, please read over my critique as I did not have concerns over "new players and backseating you cannot control", I was using that as an example to illustrate the point that draftout policy is foreign to the majority of competitive spaces and has the capacity to impact player enjoyment.

Thanks, I hope you take my thoughts into consideration.

r0hkxOP3 months ago

minor cases that are accidental and not impactful will be dismissed

this interpretation is correct

r0hkxOP3 months ago

if you want to backseat someone, quickplay or lobbies is the place to do it

r0hkxOP3 months ago

competitive is not

7rowl3 months ago

Draftout isnt like majority of other competitive spaces therefore it requires to have different standards for policy

7rowl3 months ago

My personal opinion is that closest comparison to draftout backseating is chess backseating. From little that I know about chess, I think it is community-wide consensus that any external help is basically "playing the game for you". To me, backseating about macro decisionmaking is basically that. So what we are trying to do with this rule is achieve that culture of people playing the game themselves, without external help.

7rowl3 months ago(edited)

And my personal opinion is that it is sad how many people are advocating against playing the game themselves and want to have as much external help as they can reasonably advocate for

11

.reixyz3 months ago

great analogy

9_g3 months ago

i think chess is an okay example, but i think teamfight tactics might be better. Unlike chess, tft has the massive RNG element and the macro decision making, backseating is allowed in it and its fine. most people naturally don't want backseating, they want to play the game themself, i am not sure that its a culture you need to cultivate with the threat of a ban

9_g3 months ago

i think people just want to have fun and play the game and talk to their friends about it and the threat of a ban just feels bad

9_g3 months ago

or at least thats my experience, retropog was in a game earlier and asked a random question and its like, well i can't really respond because i don't want to do the wrong thing, and yet it feels so silly, because there is no real way to enforce this and most people will do it and not realise

7rowl3 months ago

threat of a ban is only if you constantly get heavily backseated throughout all of your matches

7rowl3 months ago

effectively boosting your rating

7rowl3 months ago

would you agree that artificially boosting rating is a bad thing?

9_g3 months ago

yes getting constantly heavily backseated seems excessive

7rowl3 months ago

well thats what the rule says

7rowl3 months ago

i dont know what there is to argue about

9_g3 months ago

o7 copy

7rowl3 months ago

I dont know if you still want an answer to that question but r0hkx answered it

7rowl3 months ago

Also I do not see a reason to change the wording of that rule because its already pretty clear

7rowl3 months ago(edited)

Maybe an additional sentence can be added for clarification

9_g3 months ago

it does feel a bit murky to me

7rowl3 months ago

How so?

9_g3 months ago

I really can't find a good way to rephrase it, but "not allowed" feels very cut and dry that its never acceptable

9_g3 months ago

like i would put forward heavily discouraged, but i realise that you kind of have to say its not allowed

9_g3 months ago

It doesn't feel clear what is actually allowed

9_g3 months ago

To me having to deafen or stop screensharing feels pretty boring, whats the point of being in call at that point

maskers3 months ago

surely you can just ask someone to stop backseating

roobley3 months ago

i think draftout just wants to have a higher level of competitive integrity in the "Competitive" queue. like the rules are closer to what would exist in a tournament, not meant to be as friendly to more casual players, which is why quickplay also exists

roobley3 months ago

and that has its own issues, but i don't think draftout should compromise on that by making the competitive mode less competitive

9_g3 months ago

Why is competitive less friendly to casual players?

Threadfinn3 months ago

I think the real issue is that because of the short time limit in quickplay, low-skilled casual players feel forced to play comp to be able to actually play the game. Many players who aren't super competitive will struggle to copmplete a board within 30 minutes. Which then leads to the issues with backseating while playing with friends.

roobley3 months ago

yeah i agree this can be an issue with the 2 modes right now. but i also wouldn't conflate low skill with casual. there are a lot of lower skill players who do care about having a mode with good competitive integrity and high skill players who don't

roobley3 months ago

but also if youre with friends you can play in a private lobby with the comp mode but without those rules. not perfect solution tho

Threadfinn3 months ago

Definitely agree with this, I just mean that quickplay just isn't a perfect alternative to having a casual queue with normal rules

roobley3 months ago(edited)

well if you're a casual player you won't care as much about having strict rules to make everything as fair as possible, and those rules like 'no backseating' can get in the way of a chill experience in vc with friends. if you're a competitive minded player who wants to improve then you won't want your opponent getting boosted by a backseater

9_g3 months ago

Yes, but I mean in reference to other games. Typically other games competitive mode also caters towards "casual-competitive" player base, where as draftout seems less friendly, why that distinction?

9_g3 months ago

To me, I am a generally competitive minded player, but I don't really care about the elo, I would just want to improve, if I lose, it just means I could have played better, but I recognise that people might struggle to hold that view

roobley3 months ago

i'm not sure. i just think that looking at the rules and the way everything is set up, that's what the creators want for draftout. i can't speak for them, i guess

9_g3 months ago

but yes if I view competitive as tournament rules, I would be against backseating

r0hkxOP3 months ago

this is closer to what we're going for yeah

r0hkxOP3 months ago

not to that extent fully, official tourney rules will likely be more strict, but competitive should be close

Threadfinn3 months ago

Make a more obvious link to the rules on the draftout website

Threadfinn3 months ago

It's way too hard to find this if you don't already know it's there. I only found out this page existed because of r0hkx's link in this thread, and then struggled to figure out how you could access it from the main page.

Threadfinn3 months ago

not exactly a rules suggestion but close enough

Tacomonster3 months ago

allow this https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1516143900794818651

Threadfinn3 months ago(edited)

Can draftout just ditch the SRC rules on glitches and make its own list? It would be mostly very similar, but would allow for draftout to legalize gliches more easily. As examples, there's at least 2 different threads in resources (https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1513720218231246980, https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1516673410737111141) where there's no reason for these glitches to be banned when they're functionally the same as pearl clipping through blocks. These glitches are only banned because they don't have precedent as being used in speedruns and are therefore banned by default, but should probably be allowed for draftout.

5

roobley3 months ago

draftout has already legalized bedrock breaking outside of src rules. i think it's good for draftout to not allow new glitches by default and instead have to whitelist glitches themselves on a case by case basis. as long as the decision making process concerning undecided glitches is timely, takes in community feedback, and generally makes sense, i don't see why the current system is flawed.

Tacomonster3 months ago

glitches seem to take a while to get legalized and ones posted in resources are practically ignored

Tacomonster3 months ago

definitely would appreciate a better system

roobley3 months ago

i don't think that's a problem with the system rather than just the people making decisions being unresponsive

roobley3 months ago

maybe like an "allow glitch suggestion" forum or something along those lines

Tacomonster3 months ago

yeah that would be good

roobley3 months ago

though i do have to say that i don't really like discord for these kinds of things like suggestions/resources. on discord people tend to talk much more than they actually read, which doesn't lend itself well to more informed discussions/posts

Threadfinn3 months ago

It can keep the same list, I just mean give a complete list on the draftout rules page rather than telling people to refer to the src rules doc.

Threadfinn3 months ago

I actually think the draftout discord has been pretty good so far, most people here actually seem like they read through threads before commenting. Far better than rankedcord at least

roobley3 months ago

i agree but its not super popular atm so it could get worse

Threadfinn3 months ago

Yeah it probably will

Threadfinn3 months ago

Rowl did say they will use their own separate rules eventually, but I wanted to add here that another advantage of draftout having its own list for allowed glitches is that it doesn't need to include glitches that have been patched. The list should be much shorter and easier to understand than the src one because a lot of the allowed glitches on the src rules only apply to specific versions.

sam3 months ago

I think backseating is very important for growth of the game

It can definitely a big advantage as discussed above, but my friends got into Draftout by watching me and backseating (early on, before the ban). And I got into Draftout after backseating another friend

And probably the biggest way this game can grow is through streamers, and the backseating ban puts streamers in a difficult position (ignore chat? ignore suggestions chat gives even if they might have thought of it later?). And chat backseating is like, genuinely one of the most interesting/engaging forms of content

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xstevey3 months ago

quick play solves that problem, but for a competitive mode such as ranked, fairness is really important. 1 brain vs. 2 - 100 is kinda unbalanced lol.

Threadfinn3 months ago

I would say the competitive ladder should never be intended to be a super competitive form of any game. Look at Mongey and Feinberg as examples, both of them have a 90%+ win rate. The rankings at the top level aren't decided by which of the top 4 is better than the others, it's more about how consistently they beat players who are clearly far less skilled. Any rank system where the #1 player can improve their ranking by a noticeable amount by beating the #150 player isn't the most competitive or accurate measure of skill, especially when those top players can just choose not to queue each other if they don't want to.

A ladder ranked system based on random queueing will never be as competitive as tournaments, so it shouldn't be held to the same standard. If you tell streamers they can't even read chat while they play for hours per day, it actually makes the game less competitive by pushing away a lot of potentially skilled players who don't want to do that. Tournaments can have those restrictions because they take up far less of the person's and viewers' time, so they can sacrifice some fun to increase competitive integrity.

5

sam3 months ago(edited)

Most of the player base usually wants to play comp, especially streamers

In the case of top streamers, backseating can help, but paying attention to chat and engaging their audience is still a net negative on their play

xstevey3 months ago

streamers can and have been telling their chat to avoid backseating, avoiding backseating is NOT a new thing at all in gaming. infact most streamers find it annoying when they get backseated, in rare occurences in draftout where it is common to miss small details is where people find they would appreciate it. However comp is solo, its a 1v1. simple as that, theres no good arguement for allowing a 50v1.

xstevey3 months ago

dawg were still in beta, the rank system does not have enough data to accurately show skill. Especially with the matchmaking system putting you up against someone much worse/ much better due to lack of players queuing

xstevey3 months ago

you can interact with chatters and vice versa without giving them information, were these streamers interactions with viewers limited to backseating when they mained mcsr for example? or events? or survival gameplay?

sam3 months ago

i dont mean the interactions are limited to backseating, the interactions include backseating

1

sam3 months ago

most of the chat will want to talk about the game. this can include backseating and accidental backseating by asking questions, etc

sam3 months ago

like "why didn't you grab copper" could be answered "im not going for amethyst" or "i forgot to, I should've"

sam3 months ago

and for mcsr specifically, top players will often not interact with their chat midrun, partially cuz they're focused, and partially cuz there's just not that much to talk about vs draftout

Tacomonster3 months ago

draftout is much more routing based than mscr, without fast paced gameplay

Tacomonster3 months ago

in draftout you can afford to peek at chat while traversing empty terrain or waiting on furnaces

Tacomonster3 months ago

and the backseating is more impactful too

Tacomonster3 months ago

i agree with the backseating ban but i dont think it should be a strict rule

sam3 months ago

I definitely think it's unfair which sucks but I think it's worth it cuz there would be way more players

2

purplejodi :33 months ago

sooo how is this gonna be moderated

7

Semanari3 months ago

i don't quite understand the zoom macro ban, just making it so I have to press my face up to the monitor to see a pig in bird's eye is kinda annoying

deleted_user_2bcb3c96c1a73 months ago

gg draftout dead

18

8

cringe3 months ago

I thought all of the end game tasks were removed anyway

Fynlee3 months ago

?

deleted_user_2bcb3c96c1a73 months ago(edited)

idk im Ragebaiting I don’t even play anymore

1

Semanari3 months ago(edited)

Like I liked bird's eye a lot because it allowed you to get much closer to perfect information with your starting area but no zoom makes it so much harder to actually see things leaning back towards "oh I just lose cause I didn't see xyz"

Fynlee3 months ago

oh no draftout is more beginner friendly

placekay3 months ago

gg draftout alive

8

Occobo3 months ago

https://klipy.com/gifs/smoked-bozo-xqc

Smoked Bozo Xqc: Man Smoking Cigar

Occobo3 months ago

ninbot

GXT_ROGUE3 months ago

How will this be enforced if people have it open on another monitor or phone?

Doc3 months ago

it won't be. up to players to be honest

DespacitoEgg3 months ago

So you can just ignore the rule if you want to

3

Doc3 months ago

which will be enough at the top level which is who they're catering to

Kenan3 months ago

yo but how are you going to track the use of axis sheet or even ninjabrain bot use

Emily3 months ago

not totally true, f3+c will not work with ninbrain come the new update

3

Occobo3 months ago(edited)

marin will personally come to your house and pour water on your pc

1

aeth3 months ago

i see why its being banned and fully respect that

but i would love if it wasnt, not for anyone else but for me chatting

Kenan3 months ago

what about axis

Doc3 months ago

yes, but it would also be pretty obvious with repeated use

ZadikGooba3 months ago

whats the point in banning zoom macro when 30 fov / taking a screenshot and zooming in is the same thing. it wasnt really a problem

1

placekay3 months ago

whys it even getting banned? i dont even play but im just curious

DespacitoEgg3 months ago

Not if youre in like gold

Kenan3 months ago(edited)

it's not

Emily3 months ago

same as backseating ban, heavily discouraged and very easy to tell if someones doing it in tourny or on stream

Occobo3 months ago

they want the game to be vanilla as possible

placekay3 months ago

ah i see

Emily3 months ago

zoom is infact banned

3tenacity3 months ago

i dont fully agree w/ banning ninjabrain bot cuz it just makes it less rng, which is obv good for draftout. but even if it is banned banning sheets is stupid cuz everyone can just use that bc theres no way to moderate it. obv the draftout teams final decision tho

Doc3 months ago

if someone "blinds" into sh on a second portal multiple times, that's not gonna be legit

Kenan3 months ago

i meant they're not the same thing

tompas3 months ago

Whats the thought proccess with Ninjabrain ban?

Emily3 months ago

ahh woops

Mindeihuvita13 months ago

I only once even beat the game in draftout so this really nerfs my opponents lol

Kenan3 months ago

the offline matches will be so unfair then

cynthia ♡3 months ago

im not familiar with them at all, but im a bit surprised to read that this also bans some sheets

Semanari3 months ago

ya going to 30fov is just

r0hkxOP3 months ago

man why do we have the same one conversation with every rule change

3

Semanari3 months ago

the same thing but less convenient

purplejodi :33 months ago

i feel like so many people will come to this from ranked and not realise this stuffs banned and just use it anyway like

Doc3 months ago

i like that they're keeping the requirements to compete as vanilla-game-knowledge-based as possible. to be honest, the best way to make it not be an issue would be to completely remove all goals that require sh, which is no fun

Kenan3 months ago

sorry my first time here

r0hkxOP3 months ago

its not the same thing at all

7rowl3 months ago

from different people but saying the same thing over and over

Semanari3 months ago

so I'm not a big fan of zoom macro ban

1

Semanari3 months ago

but like

Semanari3 months ago(edited)

nin+axis sheet I totally get

1

Occobo3 months ago

I am a big fan

Fynlee3 months ago

https://klipy.com/gifs/im-a-big-fan-lewi

I'm A Big Fan Lewi - Fan Spinning

3

Occobo3 months ago

rt

purplejodi :33 months ago

but like we had the decision of ninbot for the rsg leaderboard ages ago and now everyone likes ninbot so why isnt it here

Ily3 months ago

you can get decently consistent + some luck and get like 10 2nd portals in a row with sheetless

1

Fanfan13 months ago

I'm a fan of you

Semanari3 months ago

zoom macro is stronger than 30 fov but like I already low key hate playing this version b/c of how often u have to go into the menu to change ur rd, adding another thing I have to do in menu every so often is kind blehh imo

Semanari3 months ago(edited)

when we had a macro for a similar purpose before

7rowl3 months ago

its not just "stronger" its a completely different thing

Occobo3 months ago

it takes maybe half a second if you misclick

tjthings3 months ago

I'm a massive chungus what is the difference between axis and sheetless axis? Like are you expected to memorize the axis sheet rather than keeping a literal image on your second monitor

r0hkxOP3 months ago

draftout isn't speedrunning

6

DriftSythe3 months ago

^^

Ruby / somberroses3 months ago

by banning ninbot and axis sheet you arent making it more accessible to people not into mcsr, youre just requiring them to spend an hour memorising values rather than 20 mins setting up ninbot 2 eye measure, all this does is give people who have these values memorised an advantage

aawi3 months ago

will there be some ninbot detection implemented into draftout client that shows some message to user like "warning usage of ninbot prohibited blablabla u gonna be banned for it"

7rowl3 months ago

sheetless axis u dont need to memorize anything. you can do the math every time because its designed to be easier for mental math

2

purplejodi :33 months ago

theyre both doing an objective fast and theres objectives for getting to the end so it feels like the same logic should apply to each even tho theyre not identical

Semanari3 months ago

I know it's a completely different thing but they're being used for the same purpose

Doc3 months ago

along with every other value in the game that can be memorized, which you have no problem with?

DriftSythe3 months ago

the idea is that nbb just won't work

Semanari3 months ago

I would just be changing my fov to 30 every time I want to do zoom macro

Semanari3 months ago

and that's more annoying than having the macro

sokilky3 months ago

different game

7rowl3 months ago

we have the power to undo things that we deem to be wrong that were done awhile ago and cant be undone (for speedrunning)

Az3 months ago

can we increase the guaranteed pearl trades from 4 to 5 since we're probs throwing more eyes now (since my take on the 4 trades in 16 gb was to guarantee that you can always get to the end with 16 gb a.k.a a bastion's worth) but idk i might just be ass at the game

3tenacity3 months ago

how is sheet able to be moderated btw? am i stupid or is it just not possible

Occobo3 months ago

feel like this is a lot of "I've entered the end once ever in draftout and here's why I think ninbot should be allowed"

2

7rowl3 months ago

same as any other rule. no rule is 100% enforceable. if you break a rule you run at a risk of being caught and punished

cynthia ♡3 months ago

can you do thin instead of fov 30?
i do it for 1.16 mapless and preemptive

7rowl3 months ago

^ if i have to say that one more time im gonna crashout

61

junesies ☆3 months ago

whats the reasoning for this, is it just because nbb is an external program or

tjthings3 months ago

if modifying F3+C can you still keep at least functionality maybe without decimal points for example, I use it a lot for saving coords. I know F3+I does the same but its also partially ranked muscle memory

Semanari3 months ago

thin doesn't zoom you in at all

tjthings3 months ago

or is F3+C planned on complete removal

cynthia ♡3 months ago

i meant for other things than eye measuring

cynthia ♡3 months ago

so you have to change your fov less

Mindeihuvita13 months ago

I entered only once and love it, makes my opponents slower if they try, because I never doing that lol

DriftSythe3 months ago

no it's planned to keep f3+c for coords

7rowl3 months ago

we do not plan to remove f3+c

3tenacity3 months ago

isnt that just stupid tho its undetectable and u gain a really important advantage

tjthings3 months ago

gotcha

julia3 months ago

japanese soldier fighting 30 years after the war ended

junesies ☆3 months ago

LOL

7rowl3 months ago

theres 3,5 goals that require going to the stronghold

sokilky3 months ago

cant sheet axis just be done sheetless if you memorize it anyways?

tjthings3 months ago

is it not really fucking obvious

r0hkxOP3 months ago

yes

julia3 months ago

everybody told me this ship had sailed
i agreed and now they've decided it hasn't sailed

DriftSythe3 months ago

if you cheat properly then it's undetectable and you gain a really important advantage

Ily3 months ago

they also wouldnt tell you how they detect cheaters otherwise they can act accordingly

junesies ☆3 months ago

its time to hop on draftout nova

3tenacity3 months ago

mf they arent trojan horsing my pc to see if i have a dam spreadsheet open

DriftSythe3 months ago

https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1509101969342468146

julia3 months ago

i don't remember how to do axis calc anymore

tjthings3 months ago

Even though I benefitted from it I can appreciate the lack of boat eye needed for draftout, I think it's the correct move for this gamemode

cynthia ♡3 months ago

if discussion gets repetitive, there could be an faq pinned or in announcements

Doc3 months ago

ok i am heading out to wait for everyone to stop panicking and realize that barely anything will change

purplejodi :33 months ago

can i still use a 4 function calculator

tjthings3 months ago

eye measuring is super finicky always unless you already know the quirks which is always terrible for newer players

CookieAddicts3 months ago(edited)

I get banning nbb but why the sheet as well

r0hkxOP3 months ago

no

1

11

julia3 months ago

unless there's a way of enforcing the ban i just don't think this is gonna work with the current community and how accustomed it has become to calculators

julia3 months ago

i understand it in principle

tjthings3 months ago

you can modify the game boss

tjthings3 months ago

its a mod

julia3 months ago

but i'm gonna say what people told me for years

Ily3 months ago

that doesnt change my point lmao. Some cheats are just detectable through behaviour and certain stats and they just wouldnt tell you how they detect that lmao. its like how valorant doesnt tell you how vanguard works

tjthings3 months ago

and not mcsr

julia3 months ago

this ship has sailed

3tenacity3 months ago

go ahead and memorize this

junesies ☆3 months ago

i dont necessarily see any actual reasoning here on why but maybe im just dense

DriftSythe3 months ago

the why is that there's no reason to allow it when disallowing it increases skill expression

julia3 months ago

i mean ideally there'd be methods in place to detect that too

tjthings3 months ago

what are you talking about

junesies ☆3 months ago

i guess bro its just so pointless

tjthings3 months ago

you think people are gonna remod the game to allow ninbot

1

DriftSythe3 months ago

it's just not

julia3 months ago

i need to find somebody in favour of this who i argued against calculators with back in 2021 so the arguments can be reversed

julia3 months ago

it would be funny

junesies ☆3 months ago

its not 2021

3tenacity3 months ago

i like this idea

CookieAddicts3 months ago

Is it allowed to use minecraft wiki during matches?

DriftSythe3 months ago

people are just upset because they are used to nbb and they are too lazy to learn a new strategy

1

junesies ☆3 months ago

yes

junesies ☆3 months ago

i mean yeah

junesies ☆3 months ago

LOL

Kabir3 months ago

This is for sure going to make the game more fun

CookieAddicts3 months ago

Then I don't think the axis sheet should be banned since it's not really an external tool

Zizasta3 months ago

I think "out-of-monitor-bounds game window" should be rephrased to "out-of-playing-resolution" or something along those lines because that means that if someone uses say a 1080p window in a big TV they can just resize to the TV's full resolution for a zoom and that isn't technically "out of bounds"

1

sokilky3 months ago

i mean tbh its cause im not gonna bother to learn a new strat for 3 goals instead im just not gonna pick end goals

Kk3 months ago

maybe this will motivate some people (like me) to learn a new way

r0hkxOP3 months ago

wow

r0hkxOP3 months ago

this is a good one

purplejodi :33 months ago

banning ninbot is fine but no sheet and 4 function calculators is kinda crazy imo

DriftSythe3 months ago

and like clearly the majority of the community would prefer it banned based on the upvotes to downvote ratio of the suggestion so

Zizasta3 months ago

ik

r0hkxOP3 months ago

the bounds of a monitor means the resolution in pixels, not the physical size

Kenan3 months ago

I also think it's funnier and more competitive to play without a calculator, but I don't think it's right to leave it to people's mercy, there should be a way for tracking that

Semanari3 months ago

How

Lumiric3 months ago

just update ninbot to not work with a draftout instance, I'm not sure how hard it is to detect a draftout instance though

ZadikGooba3 months ago

so is borderless window banned? that goes outside of the monitor

sokilky3 months ago(edited)

imo if end is niche (which i like) then supporting more "niche" strategies (compared to nbb) will just lock it to super high skill players who can dedicate the time to it (which as a low skilled player kind of is annoying but also doesn't realllly matter too much to me i guess idk)

1

CookieAddicts3 months ago

You can find a stronghold without using nbb by following the eyes!

9

Ily3 months ago

its also not that crazy to learn sheetless but people act like the game is dead now that 3 goals arent as fast

julia3 months ago

if this can be enforced effectively somehow and and people don't just habitually use it because they just forget/don't see the maybe it will work out

tjthings3 months ago

literally how bro.

4

r0hkxOP3 months ago

the game window resolution must not exceed your monitor resolution. that is all that "no out of bounds resizing" means

julia3 months ago

but considering the high prevalence of the mcsr community in draftout it's basically telling people not to breathe at this point

6

PPS3 months ago

so how will this be moderated???

Occobo3 months ago

you're all silly

Ily3 months ago

yeah the mcsr community does NEVER change strats and learn new stuff

stum!3 months ago

yeah this is the issue people will just do it anyway lol honor system

youiel3 months ago

i agree

r0hkxOP3 months ago

ninbot will not work out of the box in draftout. you will have to go out of your way to continue using ninbot post-ban, which will be clearly communicated to players that it is cheating

Semanari3 months ago

Rowl crashout time

1

CookieAddicts3 months ago

Idk I just think stuff like the axis sheet should be allowed since it's just a peace of paper with information, the same way I think having a list of items needed for specific goals should be allowed

Kenan3 months ago

like we will see more cheaters or rulebreakers in top 5 of the leaderboard if we continue like that i guess

Zizasta3 months ago

that's not really what I mean but I honestly dont know how to phrase it

julia3 months ago

is f3+c being disabled?

Occobo3 months ago

someone should ask how they are gonna moderate this new rule I think

purplejodi :33 months ago

no

stum!3 months ago

is that not allowed??

r0hkxOP3 months ago

no, we will have a lighter touch modification to how f3+c works to break it's functionality with ninbot

r0hkxOP3 months ago

the details are not final

CookieAddicts3 months ago

They said axis sheet is getting banned or am I stupid

purplejodi :33 months ago

just removing decimals?

stum!3 months ago

no i mean like piece of paper with items for goal

Tom3 months ago

It just makes the already slowest tasks in the game even slower making the game so much more dependant on early game goals

julia3 months ago

if you have to modify the game/ninjabrain bot then that's probably a comparable barrier to modding the game to cheat in any other regard so i guess that makes sense

CookieAddicts3 months ago

Oh no I don't think that's banned

stum!3 months ago

ah ok

tjthings3 months ago

this is my main gripe. feels similar to wiki and like oh slower method. unless im a chungus and axis is really that much better than the mental math

r0hkxOP3 months ago

what about 2 pages? 10 pages? a binder? the line needs to get drawn somewhere and the only place that is actually 100% clear is no resources for triangulation

~justin3 months ago

there are almost certainly ways for a program to determine if unmodified ninbot is running, and modifying ninbot has already been disallowed

julia3 months ago

good luck, we will see if it works

Kabir3 months ago

Does monitor resolution refer to the physical resolution of a monitor or what is configured in windows / gpu driver settings?

Fulham3 months ago

TUFFFF no ninb would be tuff as hell

r0hkxOP3 months ago

physical monitor resolution

Fulham3 months ago

make me relearn the sine rule PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

3

Tom3 months ago

Well what if someone memorizes the sheet? It's kinda absurd to expect to prevent people from looking at an external source

cynthia ♡3 months ago

again i suggest that some sort of faq or pinned message should be made to avoid repeated discussion

stum!3 months ago

i would say the line is drawn at “no external tools that do it for you” but like just information is fine (although i don’t really know the details of axis sheet)

Ily3 months ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKJxB9ClPbo

just for you fulham dont share

Feinberg Sucks

sheetless

andy3 months ago

i feel like ninbot ban is fine as long as there isnt like hella end game goals which there arent

julia3 months ago

i mean the meta is presumably gonna be sheetless axis

Lightning3 months ago

some sheets are basically the same as nbb

Fulham3 months ago

yeah but what if i make a better method than sheetless axis

julia3 months ago

if anybody hits the stronghold off of like 4 jump or something i'd be impressed

stum!3 months ago

but i feel like manually inputting the stuff is just more vanilla

julia3 months ago

rianne comeback PauseMan

1

Fulham3 months ago

twk

Semanari3 months ago

I'm surprised so many people are complaining about nin when you almost never go to strongholds instead of zoom ban

Semanari3 months ago

Maybe I just used zoom more than everyone else

julia3 months ago

stronghold 3000 blocks behind her PauseMan

cynthia ♡3 months ago

as someone who doesnt know anything about the sheets, this is what i'd assume given the ruling
like, that'd be sound logic for banning them w/ nbb
that or they make it easier or too easy

Lumiric3 months ago

Ig I'm gonna get to learning! :D

DriftSythe3 months ago

you don't even consistently hit stronghold with nbb on newer versions so like yea it would be impressive

CookieAddicts3 months ago

I mean you still have to be accurate at reading the eye without macros and you have to be quick at processing the information, it's still better to just memorize the entire axis sheet so I don't think having it removes that much skill

r0hkxOP3 months ago

memorizing the sheet is something you can do, and thats fine. putting in the time to memorize the axis sheet (or in practice, get really good at the mental math for sheetless) is no different than practicing or memorizing anything else, like bastion routes or villager trading

Semanari3 months ago

If you don't like the nin ban don't pick stronghold tasks it's that easy

julia3 months ago

are you talking about with the portal mechanics or are the measurements themselves inaccurate

Fulham3 months ago(edited)

blud i promise you, if stronghold is on your board vs me, you're losing before you hit that goal anyway g

use ninb and cheat, or don't you're still getting 13-8ed

is this tuff? it's fw me friday do you fw me @nsla

1

Lumiric3 months ago

smh

Lightning3 months ago

i feel like stuff like sheets should only be allowed if they are reasonable to memorize, everything you can look up on the wiki can easily be memorized

stum!3 months ago

i mean realistically there just needs to be a way to moderate no axis sheet or else people will do it anyway i think

CookieAddicts3 months ago

You are allowed to look at bastion tutorials during a run tho so why not the axis sheet

DriftSythe3 months ago

the fact that strongholds can go below 0 just makes it less consistent

Lumiric3 months ago

W fulham

Ethannu3 months ago

fulham aura farming in the suggestions channel

julia3 months ago

what if somebody puts the axis sheet on the minecraft wiki

22

Kk3 months ago

(in jingle) is the only two useable ones these two that I have checkmarked and would the x one be allowed

julia3 months ago

theoretically

r0hkxOP3 months ago

again, there is no clear line between "tool" and "resource". you cannot cleanly ban one and allow the other

DriftSythe3 months ago

I will blind and dig down and hit stronghold.

Bomber3 months ago

in my mind the main issue would be that lower elo players wouldnt know sheetless (assuming a lot of higher ranks would be more open to learning) and in that case a LOT needs to happen for an sh task to even be played out

Fulham3 months ago

Forwarded

1

Fulham3 months ago

alr done that

ThatsJ3 months ago

has it already been explained what exactly the purpose of the ban is? like, is it an accessibility thing? is it to make it more close to a vanilla experience? something else?

1

DriftSythe3 months ago(edited)

that's crazy

Fulham3 months ago

what if we just give stronghold coords to everyone :)

2

stum!3 months ago

no yeah i agree im just wondering how it’s gonna be moderated since i get its possible to stop people from using nbb client side but idk how that would work for things like axis sheet

stum!3 months ago

especially given there’s no way to know if ppl memorized it or not

purplejodi :33 months ago

waiiit just make the mod give u sh coords when u throw an eye GENIUS

Fulham3 months ago

wait, we could make a custom map and make it so the stronghold is public knowledge so we dont have to use eyes -- and the end portal opens after a specified period

9

Tom3 months ago

Exactly it's no different but there's no arbitrary rule about looking up a bastion route midgame or a wiki page, So if a strategy uses no external tools by principle should be allowed because you can memorize it

Tom3 months ago

Nevermind the fact that it is impossible to enforce

r0hkxOP3 months ago

this would not be allowed to use, just like other online triangulation calculators

Bomber3 months ago

wait what if you had to get in a boat and look at the eye and it gave you the coords...

3

cynthia ♡3 months ago

i feel like you'd have to read the whole nbb thread to know it, which could really use a summary

Kk3 months ago

next thing you're gonna say is that the nether opens after 10 minutes of starting

Mono3 months ago

but only SOMETIMES.

stum!3 months ago

legendary weapons for goals

purplejodi :33 months ago

omg ur so right

Fulham3 months ago(edited)

sorry i'm taking this off topic. i think that this rule is Good and I think that it increases the longevity of the game. it adds another skill, similar to the lack of backseating. i think that Spreadsheet* axis is too akin to a calculator which would allow the line to be blurred. at the top level, this would hold (through whatever moderation means are necessary) - especially in things like tournaments.

This is me assuming that F3+C info would still stay, for retaining coords still?

cynthia ♡3 months ago

gridlock with the end portal

r0hkxOP3 months ago

the line between a sheet and tool is unclear, so if we ban tools we kinda need to ban sheets. i feel like i've already said this.

also, the rules don't need to be internally consistent. if bastion routes and stronghold triangulation were really similar, we could still have different rules surrounding them

Ily3 months ago

your issue is that low elo players are prone to know less strats than high elo players or do i not understand properly

julia3 months ago

i mean how are you banning sheetless axis

julia3 months ago

you don't need any external resources to do it

Fulham3 months ago

SORRY

Fulham3 months ago

SHEET AXIS typo*

Bomber3 months ago(edited)

i don't have an issue i broadly support the ban on the basis that it doesnt really affect lower ranks (was basically what i was saying in that msg)

julia3 months ago

i thought sheet axis was getting banned already

stum!3 months ago

how do you tell the difference between someone doing mental math and using a sheet from a moderation standpoint?

CookieAddicts3 months ago

I feel like the line in this case is pretty clear plus this legit just encourages cheating

7

Fulham3 months ago

yeah thats the point, i'm agreeing

julia3 months ago

that was in the announcements

Fulham3 months ago

you can give positive feedback as well

Ily3 months ago

i see okay mb then gang

1

ThatsJ3 months ago

feels like it should've been something put in the announcement? very much comes across as "we are doing this change" rather than "this is why we are doing the change" (to be clear, I don't have a preference either way, it's just how I feel it is coming across)

5

Ruby / somberroses3 months ago

yea like people who are dishonest knowing they cannot possibly be caught get rewarded

Mindeihuvita13 months ago

I dont understand what the out of monitor bounds thing is about, I don’t do it, but can someone explain

Bomber3 months ago

wait am i brick is there replays in draftout cause surely at least someone doing boateye is obvious

Ruby / somberroses3 months ago

boateye yea but

Ruby / somberroses3 months ago

axis sheet

Bomber3 months ago

true

r0hkxOP3 months ago

its just not clear. you cannot draw a clear line without some arbitrary metrics that are impossible to clearly communicate. the only real clear line would be something like "you can use all the notes you can fix on a 3x5 index card" but that would still be stupid and impossible to moderate

CookieAddicts3 months ago

We are talking about using axis sheet

Ruby / somberroses3 months ago

you full just dont know if someone is using it or not

tjf13 months ago

wait what if it was 2v2 that would be interesting

julia3 months ago

apparently there will be modifications to the game such that you have to modify ninjabrain bot for it to work, so that would be a similar barrier to modifying the game to cheat

Fulham3 months ago

eye measuring at top level requires stretching your screen to ~14000 pixels tall (i.e. bigger than your monitor) that's no longer allowed come the 7th

purplejodi :33 months ago

we should have an accessibility tool for people with dyscalculia which is a machine that can do addition and multiplication

2

CookieAddicts3 months ago

Idk if a rule that encourages cheating is a good idea still

tjf13 months ago

ive never been in the end in a draftout game

2

CookieAddicts3 months ago

I'm all for banning nbb I don't mind that

tjf13 months ago

this is a skill issue

Ily3 months ago

I searched for sheetless a couple of days ago in the mcsr java discord and this is the best I was able to find so I made a resource: https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1523077522542035044

However if someone has better resources for sheetless/ know the ins and out better they can make a resource and I'll delete mine or just post it in this resource

Kabir3 months ago

I use very non standard resolutions that dont match my monitor. Windows doesnt even know that my phsyical monitor is an ultrawide

tjf13 months ago

also like how will this be enforced?

stum!3 months ago

guys can i use my TI-84 still

Tom3 months ago

You can though, Anything which can be reasonably done by a human without the use of an external tool should be allowed by principle and for purposes of moderation

Mindeihuvita13 months ago

Ohh so the eye measure macro? I do use that in ranked, haven’t bothered to do in in draftout

1

Mono3 months ago

if this is legit then no

stum!3 months ago

since i can use that in school tests too

purplejodi :33 months ago

apparently not

stum!3 months ago

:(

r0hkxOP3 months ago

there are various tells that we can use, but its not a 100% enforceable rule and it will be pretty easy to cheat. many other rules are like this (how can we detect an autoclicker? or vanilla xray?) that we just have to trust the community to follow

2

Ruby / somberroses3 months ago

yea banning nbb sure but the sheet?

youre just making it infinitely harder with no clear visual difference between the new strategies so no way to tell if someone is doing the way harder thing or the way easier thing they cant be caught for doing even if it breaks your rules

r0hkxOP3 months ago(edited)

what does that even mean, that is not clear at all

purplejodi :33 months ago

does the draftout client not stop texture packs lol why is vanilla xray possible

Emily3 months ago

the issue is alot of rules ppl say arent enforcable if ppl arent live/screensharing i.e backseating, f3+quake pro in strip mines etc. even seed crackers

r0hkxOP3 months ago

there is a clear visual difference

Fulham3 months ago

mods, stick with your opinions. we should've never allowed WOKE calculators in the first place.

6

stum!3 months ago

yeah i guess that’s true. it just feels like it would be really scary to choose an end task and just trust opponent not to cheat

Ily3 months ago

you also shouldn't ever tell the people how you would detect it through behaviour

CookieAddicts3 months ago

Well this isn't even really detectable even if someone is live

purplejodi :33 months ago

not even woke calculators my 4 function calculator is banned too

Emily3 months ago

fulham we need you in queue NOW fein keeps winning

ZadikGooba3 months ago

banning nbb and sheetful axis is good, but 4 function calculators and resizing seems excessive

tjthings3 months ago

go back to 2021 boomer, mcsr is nothing without calc

Fulham3 months ago

wallahi i'm giving him +2elo

Mono3 months ago

the whole reason the sheet is banned is because it basically functions as a calculator with slightly less precision so thered be no point in banning one and not the other. i disagree too, just thought i should mention

r0hkxOP3 months ago

resizing is allowed, just zoom macros are being banned

xSimons3 months ago

this aint mcsr lil pup

stum!3 months ago

iphone calculator app

Ily3 months ago(edited)

only zoom is which is understandable

purplejodi :33 months ago

banned

tjthings3 months ago

exactly, completely separate situation

Fulham3 months ago

2jthings your 2nd channel video made me feel better about draftout because How can you get Unluckier Than Fulham

tjthings3 months ago

thanks for watching! I cant wait for the next fulham video!

2

stum!3 months ago

if i build a TI-84 with redstone in my draftout singleplayer world and use that to calc is that allowed?

Fulham3 months ago

i uploaded today!

1

Emily3 months ago

ninbot is so easy to tell if someones using it while live, they throw eyes measure then run right to coords without doing a lick of math, or sheets you watch them do the measures, pause and clearly arent focused on main game, the tells are there

purplejodi :33 months ago

twk

Fulham3 months ago

on instagram and tiktok OMEGALUL

22

~justin3 months ago

sharpie created a process for mental pixel perfect back in 2023 if you want to be the first person that learns it

r0hkxOP3 months ago

imo, not using a sheet is a lot easier to learn and use than anything with a sheet. just 4 jump distance estimation and follow the eye when you're close

Fulham3 months ago

sorry for self promo @nsla sorry sorry sorry

youiel3 months ago

people can pause to do mental math too

Ruby / somberroses3 months ago

waiting for the next 4 years ggs

Bomber3 months ago

14123

Fulham3 months ago

stealing for twitter ty for the 1k likes

1

Ruby / somberroses3 months ago

LOLLL

Bomber3 months ago

wtf (idgaf)

Emily3 months ago

theres a definite diff between pausing to mental math using coords written in game chat to memorize etc. vs pausing to look over to a 2nd monitor or tab out to read from a sheet

stum!3 months ago

tbh i don’t mind the rule it’s just the implementation that idk

Bomber3 months ago

i will be promoing in the replies

CookieAddicts3 months ago

I've never talked about ninbot at all, for sheet you can legit print it out and hang it on your wall and just overlap going the direction of the eye with looking at it, also how would you tell the diffrence between mental math and looking at a sheet when someone does no mic no facecam?

tjthings3 months ago

do you know if the game is able to be modded to not allow window size to exceed monitor size?

nsla3 months ago

ጌታ ኩች መስዋዕት ጠየቀ , ኃጢአተኛ ነፍስህ ከመዳን በላይ ናት እናም ሰላምን ወይም FULHAMሥቃይን አታውቅም ፣ የንስሐ ቅዝቃዜ ብቻ አብቅቷል ፣ ምክንያቱም ኃጢአቶችህ ከማንኛውም ተልእኮ የላቀ ስለሆነ ፣ መጨረሻው ቀርቧልCS2 ፣ የኃጢአት መርከቦች

3

r0hkxOP3 months ago

probably not

Tom3 months ago

For example you can just memorize the sheet axis without needing to look at it the same way you can memorize anything else meaning a human can reasonably do it without an external tool, But boat-eye wouldn't be possible for a human to reasonably do without external tools (the math might be but the zoom macro atleast isnt) so it would make sense for boat-eye to be banned on the fact that it HAS to use external tools but axis sheet can not

2

youiel3 months ago

how would you tell they were tabbed out

r0hkxOP3 months ago

its humanly possible to do boat eye without a calculator

Fulham3 months ago

cs2... i know what you are

r0hkxOP3 months ago

with zoom macro

nsla3 months ago

i lwokey forgot that was in the message

CookieAddicts3 months ago

That's what he said

Tom3 months ago

Again the math might be but toolscreen needs to be used

xSimons3 months ago

5

nsla3 months ago

r0hkx ive been told you are on the frontlines in this discussion. Let your pal Nsla help you!

r0hkxOP3 months ago

nope, you can use subpixel boat eye to hit the stronghold with one eye without a calculator

Tom3 months ago

So it's easy to enforce and it is consistent with the rules

Emily3 months ago

tabbing out in minecraft ur either in inventory (why would u when ur calcing eyes), in menu (why would you when calcing eyes) or in chat (if youre not writing down numbers from your measurements why are you in chat)

Fulham3 months ago

"your pal nsla"

r0hkxOP3 months ago(edited)

it requires a lot of memorization but its more than humanly possible

Fulham3 months ago

https://klipy.com/gifs/omgbruh-corey-harris

Corey Harris Zoom Court Reaction

nsla3 months ago

? Its true

youiel3 months ago

well u could be paused because u dont want mobs on u

youiel3 months ago

or night cycle

tjthings3 months ago

im downloading ninbot source code to my neurolink and you cant stop me

Tom3 months ago

Yeah but i think that crosses the threshold of "Reasonably possible" anything is technically possible if you have enough time and knowledge

galoomba3 months ago

and how is that more accessible than ninbot

Fulham3 months ago

my meta glasses enhanced with SuperGrok will tell me where the stronghold is

21

nsla3 months ago

ye but u stream draftout so gg banned

r0hkxOP3 months ago

ok so how do you draw the line

Mono3 months ago

jarvis, where is the stronghold

r0hkxOP3 months ago

this is not what we're talking about at all

tjthings3 months ago

pay to win :/

Bomber3 months ago

waittt asking chatgpt to do axis for me is this banned

CookieAddicts3 months ago

Why ban a piece of paper tho

r0hkxOP3 months ago

this is banned

5

Bomber3 months ago

aw shucks

Ily3 months ago

i dont get why everyone is talking as if memorization is the only/best option. sheetless exists

Mono3 months ago

technically using a linear algebra calculator so yea banned

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

i havent been able to keep up with the discussion, is there a specific reason behind the rule change?
(im personally all for nocalc but im just wondering why it suddenly changes)

nsla3 months ago

edcr is that you?

3

Emily3 months ago

in that very very small chance someones wanting to eye measure at night when they could sleep instead, and HAVE to pause the game while doing so ig u have a small point

Bomber3 months ago

but its not a calculator its my close personal friend chatgpt

1

purplejodi :33 months ago

ohhhh so we're memorising every boateye input and output now YIPPEE

Fulham3 months ago

Draftout Rule 2.1

Emily3 months ago

like that hypothetical person gets away with it i suppose

r0hkxOP3 months ago

one piece of paper? how big? what about 10 pieces of paper? what is the font size? one or both sides?

Bomber3 months ago

i did not read that essay (joke.)

tjthings3 months ago

Bomber3 months ago

who is that

CookieAddicts3 months ago

But why only ban sheets for helping with eye measurement then, why not for everything else I feel like it's arbitrary

andy3 months ago

the real decision making in draftout is deciding whether or not to use ninjabrainbot for one seed and coinflip getting banned

Mindeihuvita13 months ago

Wait his eyes are actually fucked

CookieAddicts3 months ago

I don't understand the reasoning behind it

youiel3 months ago

they could have to do night goals and not sleep. Point is, there are many ways to cheat without being caught while screensharing

Lightning3 months ago

everything is arbitrary

Tom3 months ago

The line is drawn at an action reasonably possible without external tools, It's slightly subjective but factor in how reasonable it is to do it as a human + how easy it is to moderate

Mono3 months ago

id at least like clarification on why this change is being implemented now. for what purpose? what was the conversation?

Tom3 months ago(edited)

If you see someone doing sheetless axis vs no toolscreen boat-eye it's obvious which is much more reasonable

Fulham3 months ago

idk accessibility for non-mcsr members to get involved ig

Fulham3 months ago

if i had to guess

purplejodi :33 months ago

non mcsr people know how to use 4 function calculators why is that banned

r0hkxOP3 months ago

for triangulation, the line between sheets and calculators is extremely fuzzy. for basically everything else, calculators aren't useful. it is arbitrary to have this rule just for triangulation, but its extremely well defined and pretty clear and easy to communicate

Emily3 months ago

ppl will argue its "less accessible" because they have to learn how to do sheetless

Fox4 🦊3 months ago

Because you should still be able to look up how to do a goal, like the craft of an item or the way to brew a potion, the usual sheets just streamline that

Mono3 months ago

me looking up desmos calculator:

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

lets add the two decimal axis sheet to minecraft.wiki

Ruby / somberroses3 months ago

the issue is this just does the complete opposite

Thermite3 months ago(edited)

I guess my only concern is that this rule might be bad for draftout gaining traction - most of the people into this game are people who're primarily into Minecraft Speedrunning. This won't affect top runners much, since they're already plenty fast and likely know how to do calcless triangulation, but this really affects the people towards the middle/bottom of the bell curve

Plus, taking away tools that people are already used to for making runs faster generally doesn't go over well, regardless of whether those tools should've been allowed in the first place

6

Ruby / somberroses3 months ago

rather than setting up and learning ninbot new players need to learn sheetless

sokilky3 months ago

it feels more of just raising skill floor because its so much easier to learn and get ninbot than to know axis or even just beat the game in general

2

sokilky3 months ago

as a low-skilled representative

Ily3 months ago(edited)

not really setting up some weird programs to do this feels more wrong and annoying then learning a formula for sheetless (FOR NEW PLAYERS that arent coming from MCSR)

Lightning3 months ago

learning 4 block jump takes 2 minutes

tjthings3 months ago

acessible, highly requested, and different. i dont see literally anyone in the top 100 who would complain about learning a different strat when thats the whole point of the game

DriftSythe3 months ago

yea people need to learn a strategy which is what the entire gamemode is about instead of downloading and setting up a file to get on an even playing field?

Emily3 months ago

learning sheetless is just another tech to learn, like bastion routing, or one cycles, or pie raying, or legit any other feature of the game

maskers3 months ago

with how little any% matters you could just learn neither

Tom3 months ago

I kind of understand banning ninjabrain it is an external tool afterall i just would rather leave it the way it is

Emily3 months ago

istg you could get top 100 never stepping foot in a stronghold

1

nsla3 months ago

how many goals actually involve going to the stronghold because like i dont remember the last time i went there

DriftSythe3 months ago

^^ I'm top 20 and I've played close to 150 games and I've gone to the end once and that one time I literally just threw eyes until it went down

Tom3 months ago

I just hope the game wont devolve into early game mechanics instantly wins the game

tjthings3 months ago

yes exactly it is 3 goals, niche tech is the life of draftout

purplejodi :33 months ago

3.5 apparently

Fulham3 months ago

what would you do on a 4 function to find the stronghold assuming that your info is
-1284.3, -937.3, -145.1 // -1308.7, -942.3, -144.5

answer quickly

2

r0hkxOP3 months ago

yeah like, stronghold triangulation is just so unimportant overall for draftout

r0hkxOP3 months ago

this change barely actually affects the game

sokilky3 months ago

like its fair if thats the direction for draftout and i get the change but imo it realistically just raises skill floor (but also only really at a high level)

CookieAddicts3 months ago

If it doesn't matter why ban it in the first way I find that strange

3

nsla3 months ago

I do not think the complaints about removing this for "accesibility" are that valid because 99.999% of the goals are not that far into the game

marin3 months ago

3 if you count void, 4 if you count end crystal i guess

Emily3 months ago

exactly, and if ur good at the niche tech of sheetless u get rewarded by doing those like 3 goals consistantly

r0hkxOP3 months ago

my ninbot has been broken in draftout for the past month and ive been too lazy to fix it and it has not mattered at all

DriftSythe3 months ago

because there's no reason to not ban it and it introduces an additional form of skill expression

nsla3 months ago

mine too

nsla3 months ago

sorry that was ragebait

Kubson!3 months ago

Why ban it in draftout if its allowed normally

Emily3 months ago

the truth comes out.. rohkx bans ninbot because it doesnt work for him

4

Tom3 months ago

But it's only like this because there is 2 total stronghold/end goals it shouldnt be that way

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

wait does the change ban four function as well?

DriftSythe3 months ago

?? wdym allowed normally

Tom3 months ago

We need more late game goals

nsla3 months ago

draftout does not have to abide by src or ranked rules. it is its own thing

Tom3 months ago

#Lategameslop

Kubson!3 months ago

Rsg ranked etc

Mono3 months ago

i feel like the line is still arbitrary even with the exact rules implemented. why is resizing exactly to any specific res inbounds instantly still legal when it's still an external tool that speeds up a process? i feel like it's all or nothing and this still isn't nothing

purplejodi :33 months ago

damn u got me

Lightning3 months ago

because nbb is four function

nsla3 months ago

src rules are the default and foundation draftout is built on but as just proven it can branch off of it

Ethannu3 months ago

just follow the eyes

DriftSythe3 months ago

because this is a completely different gamemode with different rules?

CookieAddicts3 months ago

I disagree with this reasoning for disallowing axis sheet since at that point you should disallow all other forms of sheets since remembering how to do goals and how to craft things is also a skill

Kubson!3 months ago

It still revolves around mcsr you cant deny it lol

nsla3 months ago

so?

CookieAddicts3 months ago

I get banning nbb i really do

Muffin3 months ago

Kubson!3 months ago

Why are you so passive agressive chill

DriftSythe3 months ago

searching up recipes on the minecraft wiki isn't the same as doing ctrl+f in an excel sheet with 23859235834958437543 values

1

Ethannu3 months ago

is sheet not just beta calculator

Fulham3 months ago

tabbing out to googling "activator rail recipe" is a timeloss - ctrl+f your f3+c is a time gain which is probably the reason they're different

1

DriftSythe3 months ago

I just answered your question...

Ethannu3 months ago

if you’re banning calculator it’s logical to also ban sheet

Emily3 months ago

funnily enough id support banning google sheets etc. that have a master list of tasks LMAO

Emily3 months ago

force ppl to learn, or waste time googling

Kubson!3 months ago

I didnt say its a bad thing I just asked why ban it when the whole community is used to using it

ThatsJ3 months ago

again, I don't know why there is such hesitancy with giving an explicit reason! Like I said, I'm personally fine either way but for all of this talk of "enforcement" and "how little it matters", it's a bit strange to the dodge the "why" question

Ruby / somberroses3 months ago

i just think its kinda crazy to make this change based on the admins own opinions on ninbot in mcsr rather than asking the community in a poll

nsla3 months ago

NRI revolves around mcsr why dont they allow ninjabrainbot

r0hkxOP3 months ago

there are many reasons, but precedent for other resources and tools is a big one imo. like on src and before this rule change in draftout, you are not allowed to use a program that reads f3+c automatically. but since ninbot is allowed, a lot of people don't realize this and break the rules on accident

CookieAddicts3 months ago

If you fully memorize the list it's still faster

DriftSythe3 months ago

?? the poll was very clear

DriftSythe3 months ago

people are literally just saying things for the sake of saying things bro

Ily3 months ago

rohkx is trapped in an infinite looped domain expansion, doomed to argue the same points infinitely

61

Emily3 months ago

theres been a suggestion thread AND its been in roadmap for a week MINIMUM for roadmap, and the thread way longer

maskers3 months ago

this would be such a hard line to draw

Kubson!3 months ago

Thats nris whole point tho

maskers3 months ago

at what point is the sheet too helpful

Emily3 months ago

i agree jus tthought itd be funny

r0hkxOP3 months ago

there have also been a lot of tools that replicate the functionality of ninbot but through other methods than f3+c, and people also assume those tools would be allowed, even though they definitely would not be

nsla3 months ago

so things revolving around mcsr can do wahtever they want with their rules. Like draftout!

ZadikGooba3 months ago(edited)

so is 4 function banned in general or just for stronghold triangulation?

nsla3 months ago

Hi rowl

7rowl3 months ago

Hi nsla.

r0hkxOP3 months ago

using a 4 function calculator at all will not be allowed

1

nsla3 months ago

Why did he say it like that. Im scared

Kubson!3 months ago

Where is the reasoning for banning the bot btw
You guys started avoiding my question

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

let me do 5x3 on a four function to learn how many string i need for 6 leads

Muffin3 months ago

it's not just "admins own opinion", ninbot is and has been one of the most polarizing topic in the top runners' community for years, a lot of top runners disagree with its usage to this day (and especially the ones that are top draftout players too), it's not simple black and white, there's a lot other stuff to it like accessibility etc.

CookieAddicts3 months ago

Okay this reasoning i do understand

Fulham3 months ago

@nsla ban me if u dare

12

Mono3 months ago

FUCK NOW I CANT CALC (short for calculator btw) HOW MANY SAND I NEED FOR 1 STACK OF CONCRETE

Kubson!3 months ago

i see it now mb

Ethannu3 months ago

casio classwiz

takes me back

maskers3 months ago

oh i was confident it would be

DriftSythe3 months ago

noooo I can't do 64/2

DriftSythe3 months ago

whatever will I do

Bomber3 months ago

wait i have this on my desk at all times for emotional support is this banned please no please don't ban it please please

Ruby / somberroses3 months ago

how am i meant to know how many rods to get for 12 ender eyes i need the dedsafio hotbar display

/j

5

CookieAddicts3 months ago

Just don't allow tabbing out of the game I feel like that would be the only fair thing

ZadikGooba3 months ago

guess we back in high school geometry doing no calculator tests ....

nsla3 months ago

Noob

Mono3 months ago

mods please add a ding sound whenever a mob drops loot not 100% guaranteed

12

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

phones exist

Emily3 months ago

nslas gone mad with power everyone run

3

Bomber3 months ago

googling should be allowed because sometimes WE just need to check the crafting recipe for a crafting table

Pikachu3 months ago(edited)

From a brief skim of the recent discussion, i feel like people are fully overlooking the fact that draftout is in open beta, making this the perfect time to experiment. We are never going to know what changes are good/bad without trying them. They can always be reverted later if needed. I personally don’t see what the big deal is. Try it out for a while and see how it feels

Thermite3 months ago

that's it buddy. We're killing you with hammers tomorrow

1

CookieAddicts3 months ago

Can't f3c to your phone buddy

nsla3 months ago

this isnt even that bad

nsla3 months ago

i would go crazy in zylenox's chat back in the day

3

Emily3 months ago

LMAO

nsla3 months ago

also its just Lewis Fulham do we reaaallly care

Raz3 months ago

who let couris alts loose

Bomber3 months ago

next person to type is sacrificed so nsla can use their powers

purplejodi :33 months ago

mine does i have shared clipboard between my phone and laptop

1

Emily3 months ago

people HATE when the staff team experiments with changes in beta

1

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

paste into chat + take pic + copy coords from pic + search on google sheets

purplejodi :33 months ago

oh im dead gg

31

CookieAddicts3 months ago

Honestly should just remove f3c instead I feel like that would be way better

Mono3 months ago

i find it funny how it's really not that big of an issue in general but as soon as you get a lategame board with die in void or get end rod as the last goal suddenly it really matters and that just kind of stinks imo

CookieAddicts3 months ago

That's a timeless tho just like googling crafting recipe

DriftSythe3 months ago

that legit wouldn't solve anything

nsla3 months ago

^

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

its not timeloss compared to doing nav manually

DriftSythe3 months ago(edited)

how are coordinates in f3+c gonna help you

Raz3 months ago

i think remove everything controversial and standardise literally everything else. So much fun

1

Emily3 months ago

what if we removed strongholds

12

CookieAddicts3 months ago

?

~justin3 months ago

lets all use contariacalc instead

Mono3 months ago

end portal at 0,0

CookieAddicts3 months ago

Pretty sure it is if your fast at mental math's lol

purplejodi :33 months ago

i think we found the solution

nsla3 months ago

you know i thought you were cooking and then i realized u didnt know how ninjabrainbot works

KohyoSings3 months ago

One end portal at height limit at 0,0

3

Kubson!3 months ago

What if we just all lived long and happily

nsla3 months ago

ninjabrainbot uses the coords and angles in f3+c for its calculations

Bomber3 months ago

removing stronghold and end goals would make both sides happy

Kubson!3 months ago

How is feinberg so good at draftout

Mono3 months ago

i feel like the end is an integral part of minecraft so removing all the goals surrounding it is not the solution

Muffin3 months ago

aura

Bomber3 months ago

iphone calculator on the desk

1

fourniture3 months ago

remove strongholds but keep end goals

2

CookieAddicts3 months ago

Ban ninbot and f3c and allow axis sheets as well as any other sheets

Mono3 months ago

youre lesaving out an entire dimension

Kubson!3 months ago

Worst keybinds oat

DriftSythe3 months ago

so if you remove the angle how will just the coordinates help you

CookieAddicts3 months ago

Or ban sheets entirely

KohyoSings3 months ago

Soft lock

Raz3 months ago

why dont we just ban feinberg

CookieAddicts3 months ago

?

Kubson!3 months ago

How do you verify is sb uses a sheet

KohyoSings3 months ago

WRONG REPLY MB

nsla3 months ago

it wont

DriftSythe3 months ago

exactly

KohyoSings3 months ago

Soft lock

nsla3 months ago

what is your point

DriftSythe3 months ago

the issue is the angle in f3+c not f3+c itself

DriftSythe3 months ago

f3+c is useful for marking coordinates and stuff it doesn't make sense to remove

Fulham3 months ago

@nsla can we be friends again

5

nsla3 months ago

well whats stopping you from manually inputting the coords and angle

nsla3 months ago

Okay.

1

CookieAddicts3 months ago

Nothing

DriftSythe3 months ago

nothing but that's not related to f3+c

DriftSythe3 months ago

you can do that by just opening f3

Bomber3 months ago

banned

DriftSythe3 months ago

and I don't think we want to remove f3

nsla3 months ago

we should remove f3

nsla3 months ago

thats a developer debug tool

KohyoSings3 months ago

LOL

nsla3 months ago

casual players (Us) should not be using such tools.

1

CookieAddicts3 months ago

Sob

~justin3 months ago

youtube commenters disagree

Mono3 months ago

no more pie. no more coords. no more biomes. you all get Vanilla Just How The Devs Intended

nsla3 months ago

no more mods. hypervanilla

r0hkxOP3 months ago

limited f3 gamerule for lobbies would be hype though

Raz3 months ago

someone should mod a calc (slang) to run ninbot on it

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

honesltly i think banning f3c is a good solution and then you could allow axis sheets which are much less close to calc if you only have one decimal point of precision

r0hkxOP3 months ago

it wouldn't change the game too much but it would be fun

Bomber3 months ago

i think we should orbid any use o the letter ater e

2

DriftSythe3 months ago

WE will be carrying 64 torches in the offhand at all times

maskers3 months ago

the issue is people being able to cheat and thats just not entirely solvable
as long as ninjabrainbot doesn't work ootb and you have to go out of your way to cheat, i don't think draftout needs to do anything else

r0hkxOP3 months ago

^

nsla3 months ago

^

DriftSythe3 months ago

Kabir3 months ago

is there any valid uses for f3c after the rule change?

DriftSythe3 months ago

marking coords

nsla3 months ago

your home portal in the nether is like the most common use outside of draftout

maskers3 months ago(edited)

getting the angle with better precision for measuring

2

nsla3 months ago

and is also applicalbe in draftout

nsla3 months ago

that too

Emily3 months ago

we banned calcs pls dont use that....

DriftSythe3 months ago

I use it for lava pool a lot of the time

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

good luck doing that math mentally with double decimal precision

Mono3 months ago

the whole point is thats getting removed

maskers3 months ago

why am i getting

d people did it in couris nri

DriftSythe3 months ago

is that helpful for sheetless

nsla3 months ago

f3 gives one decimal digit f3+c gives two

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

couri allowed an axis sheet

Mono3 months ago

theyre changing how it works

nsla3 months ago

like the precision thing is True

DriftSythe3 months ago

o ok but wouldn't the math be harder with 2

Lightning3 months ago

ik its technically possible without, but i think they all used sheets

nsla3 months ago

how do you know for sure how its going to be changed

maskers3 months ago

oh true

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

fein didnt and crashed out that couri allowed it

Rudy3 months ago

its fine 100k nri will be no f3

DriftSythe3 months ago

you don't even need to remove the angle tbh as long as you make it so nbb doesn't work if a normal player tries to use it without knowing about the rule change then it's fine imo

Mono3 months ago

i just know it will be and if they're changing it in any way to break ninbot and all calculators you also cant use mental math meaning it will likely be 1 decimal

Lightning3 months ago(edited)

true, but i dont think he didnt used double digit right?

1

Ily3 months ago

couriway said before the NRI he would do axis sheet but after the event he said that shit is trash he is gonna learn sheetless instead

1

Ily3 months ago

so bringing up couri doesnt really work lmao

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

he used single digit because you reasonably cant do the math with double digit mentally while also playing

Ily3 months ago(edited)

he just caved so pro runners participated (which is fine coz its supposed to be good content)

Rudy3 months ago

i reckon they would've participated if he did no f3 no keybinds no nothing

Mono3 months ago

it'd just be a fein smashdown because he's way better than everyone at ut

Ily3 months ago

I genuinely think some wouldnt, i think edcr wouldnt since he didnt accept couris first invitation

Rudy3 months ago

maybe specific runners yeah but he could have still got a full roster of 'pro runners'

Rudy3 months ago(edited)

a bit too offtopic here though i think

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

imo it makes sense to allow ninbot and stuff in src cuz youre supposed to go as fast as possible, while draftout is more of a minigame and a race between two players

DriftSythe3 months ago

ok but like edcr is the best in the world you kinda want to have him

DriftSythe3 months ago

true

Ily3 months ago

ye he said he would love to learn two digits but his brain just cant do it midgame

1

hset3 months ago

i dont quite understand, does banning sheets that assist with triangulation means i cant have a piece of paper on my wall that for example says whats the sin is for angle changes? if so, isnt it strange to ban such information sources that literally have no inputs, if not, then what part of that rule i understood wrong?

Mono3 months ago

~~can someone tell me what the c is in src pls~~

nsla3 months ago

.com

11

Mono3 months ago

ty

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

most people would genuinely have to pull out pen and paper mid run to do that math fr

Ily3 months ago

you are absolutely right but he often starts his NRI videos with "i got the in my opinion 8 best runners in the world" so i think there is some part of him that wants to try and get the best of the best

Rudy3 months ago

fairs

Rudy3 months ago

i kinda like it more when nri has like. unique runners though too i think its cool to show of niche guys sometimes

1

Bomber3 months ago

nonononono its not an axis sheet its an artsy geometric table poster print /j

1

Rudy3 months ago

OFF TOPIC ALARM

nsla3 months ago

Niche people like my good old friend @Fulham

Rudy3 months ago

GET FULHAM IN NRI

Bomber3 months ago

get fulham to upload gg

purplejodi :33 months ago

i cant have my gcse maths revision on my table or i get banned

1

nsla3 months ago

well there's nothing we can do to enforce irl stuff like that unless if you had a camera on that also had the sheet in frame

nsla3 months ago

but also if you need a sheet like that to cheat in draftout then uh. Lol

Mono3 months ago

just wanted to add one more thing before i left: i, in theory, agree with the change since speedrunning isn't the focus. however, i feel like still allowing toolscreen resizing at all is kind of weird if we're doing all or nothing, and i also want to know why it's being discussed now specifically. also, some people are predisposed to not being able to do mental math, so it's a bit unfair to them. also this seems like hell to moderate especially with many people not expecting this change

Ily3 months ago

rowl looks through every players window now and then

purplejodi :33 months ago

but paper is banned bc you could own multiple pieces of paper and thats unfair

eoeoeoeoeo3 months ago

shouldnt reading minecraft wiki during match also be not allowed since it gives more of an advantage than sheets for calculation which is banned?

nsla3 months ago

this is a fallacy but i dont know which

2

~justin3 months ago(edited)

lets finally get around to deciding if fancyzones should be banned, I'm up for it

nsla3 months ago

soooo comment Ignored!

Emily3 months ago

all of the fallacies

Rudy3 months ago(edited)

just entirely different from a game design perspective and what the devs intend with the game lol

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

can i do the math by pulling out a piece of paper and writing that shit down exam style

Emily3 months ago

i think its Whataboutism

nsla3 months ago

yea thats it

hset3 months ago(edited)

A piece of paper was an example of a static information container that cant perform any calculations. Is this kind of sheet banned?

Buzzaboo3 months ago

it's the fallacy of talking about a different thing

Buzzaboo3 months ago(edited)

thank me later

purplejodi :33 months ago

what do you know about tism /j

4

eoeoeoeoeo3 months ago

maybe, but why some external resources are allowed and some are banned?

nsla3 months ago(edited)

tbf the only resize that actually has any meaningful effect in draftout with the limitation of being in the bounds of your monitor is thin bt

Emily3 months ago

dw i got that in spades

r0hkxOP3 months ago

im predisposed to being really stupid and bad at draftout can i use creative mode so i can properly compete please

3

Mono3 months ago

i dont disagree i just think if we're banning external tools then why is all toolscreen resizing not part of that since it's very easy to do manually

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

when are we ever doing mapless on draftout

11

Mono3 months ago

eray/preemptive

nsla3 months ago

im 99% sure deck_cer did against me but also i didnt see him get acquire hardware and the chest was not loaded on spawn so i dont know

Mono3 months ago

not mapless

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

ig its useful for eray and preemptive but you could just do 30fov

r0hkxOP3 months ago

this is correct yeha

nsla3 months ago

its just a thing u can check for while waiting the 30 secconds

Mono3 months ago

okay could you at least respond to the other parts of the message cuz i kinda feel like they're more important

r0hkxOP3 months ago

its pretty far reaching and the reasoning kinda only makes sense if you were around for endless debates in the speedrunning community in 2021 but its kinda just the logical conclusion of what the rules here have to be

maskers3 months ago

the most basic version of resizing is pressing the f11 key
would you also want it banned? if not, wheres the line?

Rudy3 months ago

rohkx i have the entire axis sheet nailed into my wall with a 6 inch steel frame. it would be too hard for me to take down

6

r0hkxOP3 months ago

in bounds resizing just like doesn't really matter

r0hkxOP3 months ago

put a tarp over it or something

Rudy3 months ago

dude. you wont believe this. i have axis sheet branded tarps

r0hkxOP3 months ago

turn them around

Rudy3 months ago

why wouldnt it be double sided

2

Mono3 months ago

i dont want it banned i think allowing instant resizing with an external macro to whatever res you want is silly instead of just doing f11 for one resize

r0hkxOP3 months ago

hi roobley

roobley3 months ago

i trained my cat to recite the entire axis sheet when hes hungry what do i do

13

Rudy3 months ago

fuckkkkk

Emily3 months ago

rudy has an axis sheet tattoed on his eyelids

Emily3 months ago

how blink

nsla3 months ago

hi roobley

Rudy3 months ago

my parrot backseats me when im playing bro im fuckedd

roobley3 months ago

hi nsla

maskers3 months ago

people would play in fullscreen and use f11 to resize to thin then, i don't think its any different from toolscreen thin
wide is useless in latest versions anyway

eoeoeoeoeo3 months ago

isnt this just the same thing now

Mono3 months ago

i spent 1000h with the axis sheet on my oled monitor and now its burned in guys help

nsla3 months ago

@r0hkx notice how she said hi to me

Bomber3 months ago

feed him??????

Mono3 months ago

thats my point

Emily3 months ago

training your parrot to speak the whole axis sheet on command.. new draftout tech

3

r0hkxOP3 months ago

feed the cat

purplejodi :33 months ago

your cat must be fed to play draftout

Bomber3 months ago

if i babysit my 3 year old nephew and his first words are "stronghold is at x 1000 z 892" do i have to cover his mouth with tape when i play

5

Rudy3 months ago

out of food can you buy all of us cat treats for our axis reciting cats please

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

what if im playing on a vertical 16k display and my monitor is tall enough for boateye to be in bounds and i do the calculation manually

13

r0hkxOP3 months ago

the debates are stupider now for draftout cause it doesn't actually really affect the game almost at all compared to speedrunning where it kinda defines the whole run

3

Mono3 months ago

wtv i dont think my question will get answered so ill just go watch The Berg again

r0hkxOP3 months ago

that is completely allowed and encouraged

Ruby / somberroses3 months ago

dumbass kid having its first words at 3 ggs

2

purplejodi :33 months ago

manufacturing a 384 x 16384 monitor so mcsr is pay2win

Rudy3 months ago

have you ever watched a mcsr lan? they all do this

Rudy3 months ago

they play on those vertical billboards at times square

5

Bomber3 months ago

my stupid chud nephew can't count to 5 but can do axis can he backseat me if im babysitting him

1

r0hkxOP3 months ago

give him a pacifier

Mono3 months ago

no backseating sorry

purplejodi :33 months ago

give him the controller atp

nsla3 months ago

i have an inhumane suggestion

41

2

Bomber3 months ago

but what about his dental health

5

Ruby / somberroses3 months ago

LOLLL

purplejodi :33 months ago

draftout team support ruining toddlers dental health confirmed

r0hkxOP3 months ago

ok give him a lolipop or something idk

r0hkxOP3 months ago

actually thats probably a choking hazard

purplejodi :33 months ago

too sugary

r0hkxOP3 months ago

just give him an ipad

3

Mono3 months ago

give him NOTHING. he deserves nothing

Emily3 months ago

turn on cocomelon

Rudy3 months ago

DUDE HES LEARNING HOW TO SPEEDRUN WITH CALC

Rudy3 months ago

FUCK

Ruby / somberroses3 months ago

put him in the basement draftout is more important draftout is life

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

blindfold him and tape your own mouth so you cant talk to him

TunaBscuit3 months ago

are all babies infume core

Emily3 months ago

yea

eoeoeoeoeo3 months ago

oh but then he gives you cords to the stronghold, wouldnt want that would we

Mono3 months ago

lock him in a different room forever

Ily3 months ago

just have stronghold seedtype, problem solved

7

eoeoeoeoeo3 months ago

hes loud af

andy3 months ago

wait would calculators be allowed for sheetless axis then?

1

r0hkxOP3 months ago

do you spawn in starter or is it like ravine seed or something

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

bedrock ahh

Mono3 months ago

visible starter on surface

purplejodi :33 months ago

spawn in the pr lava

Ily3 months ago

ocean or air exposed only

r0hkxOP3 months ago

no, calculators are not allowed for triangulation

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

no you just spawn on a village and the sh is below it

Mono3 months ago

bedrock? is that you?

Rudy3 months ago

spawn in prefilled portal seedtype?

TunaBscuit3 months ago

WE are minecraft bedrock

purplejodi :33 months ago

end city seed type when?

3

Ily3 months ago

actually scratch that it isnt allowed to be exposed so when you spawn you think its a different structure/structureless and then you realize it was under spawn all along

Mono3 months ago

instead of birds eye view for stronghold seeds you do bats eye view and its underground

Rudy3 months ago

just do the end poem credits seed type atp whats the point in all this game stuff

Kubson!3 months ago

Are mansions viable for draftout

Rudy3 months ago

they're pretty good

Bomber3 months ago

irl yes because you can fit the 16k tall monitor for boatey

212

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

add goal acquire all advancements

r0hkxOP3 months ago

unironically i think a nether seed type would be really cool

1

Rudy3 months ago

mhm i agree

Rudy3 months ago

i also want like. amplified world seed type

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

prime april fools idea

Mono3 months ago

superflat seed type

Ily3 months ago

prob just have to make sure its warped or crimson right

Mono3 months ago

debug world

1

r0hkxOP3 months ago

yeah, warped or crimson and really near a bastion

Emily3 months ago

at what point do we stop playing draftout and just flip a coin upon match start and award a winner via that

3

Mono3 months ago

fuck it lets just do every possible random world gen option from pre-1.13 or whenever they removed custom world gen

Bomber3 months ago

middle ground is that calcs should be allowed on weekends

3

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

like imagine loading up draftout on april 1st and you just load into an amplified world at y300 or something

Mono3 months ago

specifically in the worst possible timezone for the usa

2

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

weekends on mars timezone

Ily3 months ago

idk why but it reminds me of that visualization tool someone build that overlays you the exact block you should 2nd portal on for mcsr

Bomber3 months ago

calcs are allowed if you are outside the US

eoeoeoeoeo3 months ago

why stop at that, you just dont play since every match will result in either one player winning or the other, always the same

maskers3 months ago

its so cooked if you don't know bastions / would die to brutes

Rudy3 months ago

this thread is what life would be like if general chat didnt have slow mode in it

Rudy3 months ago

consider it mods

Mono3 months ago

this thread is what life would be like if we all argued over a tiny part of the video game

Mono3 months ago

wait...

r0hkxOP3 months ago

should i put slowmode on this thread

3

Bomber3 months ago

do not silence the proletariat!!!!!!!

Rudy3 months ago

do NOT step foot in competitive you will become DUST

Bomber3 months ago

every second of slowmode is another axis sheet poster i list on redbubble

5

DriftSythe3 months ago

1 hour slowmode

xSimons3 months ago

i think Draftout is fun because it makes me engage with the different mechanics the game has, in the way the game expects you to engage, but with a fun, competitive twist. I've never played competitive speedrunning and i'm not interested in spending hundreds of hours outside of the actual game in order to get better, the same way i've never downloaded Aimlabs to get better at an FPS. I think the fun of competitive games comes from seeing yourself learn along the way, trying again and again until you gain the abilities to do stuff you couldn't do before, that's where the rush comes from for me. If i win a game from finding the stronghold one day, i'm gonna feel cool as shit, because i took the puzzle the game offers and i beat it, not because i looked up how to solve it. No hate against calc lovers but i don't really fuck with it, i like to play as it is, just plug and play

31

Mono3 months ago

sorry what does calc mean im new in chat

Ily3 months ago

feinberg alt account

Bomber3 months ago

calculus

2

Rudy3 months ago

i dont know. im sorry. im useless.

11

xSimons3 months ago

calc is slang for calculator, it's something cool people say

Mono3 months ago

dont put your self worth on your knowledge!! you are awesome!!

Emily3 months ago

paid chatter ome

nsla3 months ago

whats ur paypal

3

nsla3 months ago

can i pay you for more messages like this

Mono3 months ago

nsla ill take diamond pick mcsr ranked ill shill no calc

nsla3 months ago

mcsr ra-

4

Rudy3 months ago

echo shard supporter tier in draftout*

hset3 months ago

assuming everyone will be playing fair, this means memorizing a table of like 100+ numbers or something gives one an advantage. (1) have draftout team considered this advantage insignificant unless you spend unreasonable amount of time learning unreasonable amount of values or (2) draftout team came to the conclusion that memorizing gives significant advantage and considers this a problem but a decision was made that its better to have such a problem than to have sheets allowed or (3) draftout team came to the conclusion that memorizing gives significant advantage but doesnt consider this a problem or was it something else?

Bomber3 months ago

Draftout isn't just a fun game -- it's an experience.

And honestly? The use of calculators can really kill the vibe.

9

Mono3 months ago

mods kill this guy

Bomber3 months ago

uhm

Lumiric3 months ago

ai generated message but I agree

Ily3 months ago

am i a brick or why do people assume that memorizing is easier than sheetless?

purplejodi :33 months ago

can u make a glitched ranked

nsla3 months ago

yea sure

purplejodi :33 months ago

https://tenor.com/view/yippee-happy-celebration-joy-confetti-gif-25557730

Yippee Happy GIF - Yippee Happy Celebration - Discover & Share GIFs

0

r0hkxOP3 months ago

in any case (memorization, mental math, calculators), its not very impactful to draftout gameplay. that being said, i think memorization is a skill, and if you're willing to memorize something for an advantage, that's fine

3

ortho3 months ago

13

Aurora3 months ago

does divine travel work on new version

r0hkxOP3 months ago

in theory i think but maybe not the specific methods for 1.16

r0hkxOP3 months ago

idrk though

Bomber3 months ago

matthew bolan pick up the phone we need you

Bomber3 months ago

activate the bat signal or smth

Rudy3 months ago

its a real thing

Aurora3 months ago

its probably fine to remove calc for draftout cuz variance is very high anyways, unlike mcsr

Rudy3 months ago

i said bolan find tech for ametyhst in mongey chat one time and he appeared

5

Bomber3 months ago

did he

Bomber3 months ago

find any

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

yo brentilda?

Rudy3 months ago

he said he would look into it so idk

Bomber3 months ago

we wait eagerly

nsla3 months ago

hes a busy man

Fulham3 months ago

most players outside of the top 20 dont remember how to craft an activator rail

Emily3 months ago

bro wdym its easy its 1 redstone torch 2 sticks 6 iron!!

Fulham3 months ago

r0hkxOP3 months ago

i don't know how to craft an activator rail

DriftSythe3 months ago

I’m in the top 20 and I still have to google the recipe

r0hkxOP3 months ago

i look it up or just get a normal rail to unlock the recipe first

Emily3 months ago

for legal reasons i meant to type detector rails recipe and acidently typed the correct items for activator

3

DriftSythe3 months ago

imo detector rail recipe is easier than activator rail

Bomber3 months ago

gum to my head ask me to make anything involving redstone i’m on the floor

2

seol3 months ago

will there be any change to f3+c in the calc ban update?

seol3 months ago

like a format change or some sort of info reduction

MrBudgie3 months ago

Am I allowed to do math on a physical calculator

DriftSythe3 months ago

no

MrBudgie3 months ago

ight

DriftSythe3 months ago

https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1515054331936903358/1523083374514667632

fruitberries3 months ago

its hard to see whats been talked about and what hasnt but why ban Just eyezoom instead of banning eyezoom thin and wide

1

fruitberries3 months ago

is the argument like u could technically do those things in vanilla

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

the argument is that theyre basically useless and you can do it with f11 without any external tools

fruitberries3 months ago

yeah ok figured

fruitberries3 months ago

actually I would say wide vs no wide can be pretty op but I guess people would just manually do it with f11

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

whats even the usecase for wide in 26.1? i guess seeing more in bird's eye?

fruitberries3 months ago

sure, but Nether

fruitberries3 months ago

u can just see way past fog

AdditionalRAM3 months ago(edited)

they fixed the fog in new versions though it doesnt work anymore

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

we were mostly talking about thin being used for eray preemptive and mapless (when are we even doing mapless on draftout)

ZadikGooba3 months ago

ik you can make zoom way more absurd by tweaking stuff but default eye zoom really isnt that different from 30 fov (the RP is 32 rd away)
The only real issue i see is stacking 30 fov and zoom macro but atp you arent getting that much extra clarity. It seems like a non issue to me but idk

7rowl3 months ago

did u move when taking these screenshots

7rowl3 months ago

wide doesnt affect fog since 1.17

ZadikGooba3 months ago

yes i just realized the gold block unrendered

ZadikGooba3 months ago

27 rd this time

7rowl3 months ago(edited)

that does give a lot of detail to a point where you can be able to distinguish if it has mossy/non mossy and crying / non crying obby

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

wouldnt the 30fov one change a lot based on monitor resolution though

7rowl3 months ago

that too yes

ZadikGooba3 months ago

i have a 2k monitor

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

4k 32" monitor havers mog the 1080p macbook players

ZadikGooba3 months ago(edited)

i dont really like the idea that monitor size might give you an advantage but i see the point yea

AdditionalRAM3 months ago

you just cant get rid of all hardware differences, better hardware is bound to give you an advantage

ZadikGooba3 months ago

but zoom macro leveled that playing field in the past so it feels weird

nes3 months ago

How would zoom macro be bannable if wide and thin are allowed

nes3 months ago

Like I mean like how would you ban it because it’s just tool screen like I’m confused on how you would know if the persons doing zoom macro

7rowl3 months ago

Every time somebody asks how something is detectable i just assume they are trying to learn how to avoid getting caught

nes3 months ago

Oh that wasn’t my goal but I’m guessing it’s not gonna be told

EliteMaster3 months ago

atp make a faq to not ask or mention how a rule is meant to be enforced

Az3 months ago

can we do a one time pop up ingame to announce the new rule change? with like a "I agree" button or something idk

3

LISP BEAMER3 months ago

I'm not at this level yet of skill yet but if a rule isn't enforced or not enforced well its safe to assume in a competitive setting your opponent will be doing so and you have to do so in order to be on the same playing field

LISP BEAMER3 months ago

If the system is enforced well it makes sense to hide why, not sure if it's already public but just so people know it's being enforced well a log of people banned / punished

LISP BEAMER3 months ago

Just so people have more faith in the system and don't need to know how it works

r0hkxOP3 months ago

many rules here operate under an honor system

seol3 months ago

will there at least be something in place to brick ninbot for those who might be unaware?

r0hkxOP3 months ago

there will be something yes

Erikfzf3 months ago(edited)

i think banning ninja brain bot is good but i don't understand the decision to ban Axis, it is a spreadsheet that is printable/writable, and it significantly increases the barrier to entry if we ban it for end related goals

Axis is something that you can memorise too, why are we adding this limitation where if you want to play at a top level you have to memorise an entire sheet that is now banned to use?

Correct me if im wrong but you are allowed to google how to craft/any wiki related questions but axis sheet is banned?

Erikfzf3 months ago

I can understand perfect travel as that is essentially a tool but this is just a compilation of numbers on a spreadsheet that you have to know how to use

LISP BEAMER3 months ago

https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1515054331936903358/1523096031741345862
For some of your answers

Erikfzf3 months ago

alright thanks

Erikfzf3 months ago(edited)

I just completely disagree on "memorisation is a skill" as it is still a skill to be able to do axis and having this insane difficulty spike will affect the game pretty significantly imo, people who spend hours memorising the sheet are now able to have win conditions on end goals until everyone does it which is just seperate to the vision of draftout i assume exists

Erikfzf3 months ago

All this change does is benefit people who spend hours memorising the axis sheet to do it in draftout instead of removing tools which is what i thought the change was for

Erikfzf3 months ago

i don't understand banning axis sheet at all

1imb3 months ago

this rule change legit makes no sense at all - why are we banning printing out one specific sheet that helps with stronghold triangulation yet allowing printing anything else off and using that. i have this sheet printed out so i dont have to memorise all dye combinations for crafting since i don't need to know them outside of draftout and this is perfectly legal

5

1imb3 months ago(edited)

either allow axis sheets or ban every sheet atp because the ruling on this makes no sense whatsoever

1imb3 months ago

it also physically cant be enforced at all

Threadfinn3 months ago

Hypothetically is it technically illegal to look at the Minecraft wiki page on locating stronghold since it's information on locating strongholds? https://minecraft.wiki/w/Eye_of_Ender#Locating_strongholds

Eye of Ender

An eye of ender is a craftable item that can be thrown in the Overworld to show the direction of the nearest stronghold, which may break the eye. Up to 12 eyes of ender are required to activate a stronghold's End portal, which leads to the End dimension.

Threadfinn3 months ago

Since they already said axis would still be illegal even if someone uploaded a sheet to the wiki.

aeth3 months ago

they can take my ninjabrain bot away but they cant take the ninja in my brain that makes me play like a bot

M33_Galaxy3 months ago

@r0hkx How to identify a person who used ninja bot or triangularion sheets?

If he never stream

Feinberg3 months ago

theres not, but theres also no way to identify basically every other rule that can be broken offline

Feinberg3 months ago

eh sheetless is same accuracy in this version tbh, especailly since u will always want to blind high because of lower sh gen

Feinberg3 months ago

and i really dont think the meta will shift for the TWO goals that require stronghold (enter stronghold + enter end). every other goal that can use stronghold/end (crystal, void, cobweb) is significantly faster using an alternative method

Feinberg3 months ago

i doubt people will spend time memorizing an entire axis sheet on 2 decimal places of accuracy (which is the only way its better than sheetless) to save time on maybe one goal every 5th to 10th game, if the game even ever gets to said goal

11

Feinberg3 months ago

for the 50th time this argument is useless because practically every rule cant be enforced and yet we still have them

3

baipandaa3 months ago

good change

I appreciate that draftout is differentiating from mcsr in a meaningful way. I think what makes draftout interesting is engaging with the mechanics already in the game rather than relying on outside tools.

Erikfzf3 months ago

is sheetless different to axis i might be uninformed, i thought sheetless just meant memorising the sheet

𝐏𝐢𝐜𝐤𝐥𝐞𝐝𝐮𝐝𝐞𝟏𝟖3 months ago

give my account creative in every round

maskers3 months ago

https://youtu.be/OKJxB9ClPbo hopefully not outdated
you do the math of diving numbers

Feinberg Sucks

sheetless

Erikfzf3 months ago

ok this is a lot simpler than what i thought sheetless meant

Erikfzf3 months ago

i still think its a bit silly to completely disallow the spreadsheet but this is at least better than i thought

Az3 months ago

you must thought feinberg was minecraft jesus if he memorized allat

Erikfzf3 months ago

yes i just thought he memorised it or had some way of knowing based on the angle

Feinberg3 months ago

i have some of the calcs memorized from just doing them a lot but its always an approximation anyways

hitti99993 months ago

What's the idea behind banning calc? Like what aspect is it ment to improve

maskers3 months ago

^

maskers3 months ago

^

hitti99993 months ago

So because it's an extra tool or what

hitti99993 months ago

Then why is wide macro still allowed

TheRacingWarrior3 months ago

I think banning Ninbot by disabling F3+C is fine but you should still allow the standard Axis sheet (not perfect travel). Not everyone has the same talent to juggle with numbers as much as you do in sheetless Axis. Keeping the Axis sheet allowed feels more balanced to me and makes the math more accessible.

Az3 months ago

ong bro just walk

Apparently A Chicken3 months ago

Here’s a fix make it so you can’t f3+c and remove the ability to see the angle of where you are looking at and force everyone to do no f3 triangulation

Feinberg3 months ago

you can hit f11 and achieve the same thing as wide macro

Feinberg3 months ago

not everyone has the same talent to craft 50 items or route a bastion or leash 8 mobs

Feinberg3 months ago

why should we draw the line at triangulation

Feinberg3 months ago

and not any other skill in the game

nsla3 months ago

because it provides zero benefit in versions above 1.17

maskers3 months ago

hopefully this isn't getting lost in the calc debate lol

would doing https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1510718716734869634 with toolscreen overlays be legal?
i don't use toolscreen but surely you can either create an overlay for a border for each goal and have a hotkey to toggle each, or add one image overlay and have a python script that updates that image based on ur inputs
from reading how the rules are written, it sounds legal to me right now, the external programs never learn what any of the goals are

maskers3 months ago

External tools and resources must not observe or utilize the state of a Draftout board in an ongoing match. For example, a tool that takes an input of some or all of the goals of a board would not be allowed to be used during a match.

maybe you could argue that a goal being manually selected counts under "the state of a board"

Threadfinn3 months ago

That made me think of another toolscreen question, are mirrors legal in draftout? They aren't allowed by src rules so I would think they'd be banned. However, they're used for src despite not being officially allowed so maybe they still are allowed?

Threadfinn3 months ago

I think it would be ok depending on how it's set up. If it just puts a colored square in a specific spot when you click on that part of your screen, that would be fine right?

Threadfinn3 months ago

Idk if you can actually set it up this way but hotkey combinations would have the same effect, it isn't reading the board at all in that way as long as it doesn't automatically turn off when the goal is complete.

maskers3 months ago

given rowl said it wouldn't be an ingame feature, i would also think this should mean it should also not be legal with external tools, if it's reasonable to ban it

Threadfinn3 months ago

I agree it makes sense to ban it, but I don't think the current state of the rules does ban it. In theory I could put a transparent piece of plastic over each square on the board to mark them manually and it would be the same effect.

LISP BEAMER3 months ago

https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1515054331936903358/1523138262191833151

LISP BEAMER3 months ago

also https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1507768837016256573/1507771256685203606

maskers3 months ago

what is this in response to

LISP BEAMER3 months ago

the fact that the rules are honor system and if you were to do something like that its an honor system of whether you think it breaks the rules or not

Threadfinn3 months ago

Well I'm allowed to write down notes, I feel like marking squares on my screen is just a form of taking notes.

Threadfinn3 months ago

I don't think it would be banned

maskers3 months ago

another random thought, i really don't know what im talking about now, but i wonder if there's a legal way to make the goals more visible on the board with toolscreen
i.e. to easier see which goals aren't completed

1

Threadfinn3 months ago

If you're allowed to use any premade notes except axis sheet, you can definitely write things down mid game. Apart from it being unenforceable, banning note taking would include banning things like writing cords in chat so you don't have to remember them. I don't see why that would only be allowed for text, and why I couldn't just mark goals that I want to focus as long as it isn't using a program to detect goal progress or completions.

Threadfinn3 months ago

Now I just convinced myself marking goals should be an in game feature because otherwise it's just slightly annoying to do, and doesn't break any rules I think.

~justin3 months ago(edited)

marking goals through filters, overlays, or similar has the distinction of being external program use, which is generally undesirable (?)

~justin3 months ago(edited)

as opposed to writing physical notes and maybe more strictly analogous computer use such as a notepad

Threadfinn3 months ago

I feel like the effect is so similar though that it becomes a case where banning one but not the other just doesn't make sense.

Threadfinn3 months ago(edited)

Like using a filter vs a piece of colored tape effectively is the same. Like how when banning nbb it made sense to not allow printing out axis sheets since they're so similar, even though one is physical and the other is an external program

Threadfinn3 months ago

But I agree getting advantage from external programs isn't great, so it would make sense to make it a built in feature.

~justin3 months ago(edited)

in a world where making distinctions in the digital realm between static references and dynamic program-calculators is meaningless, I see the physical-digital line as a useful approximation of sanity. it's not at all perfect, but it imposes soft limits the way computers don't

maskers3 months ago

i think it's reasonable to, like, not allow modifying the board visibility in any way, including putting tape over the screen

Threadfinn3 months ago

But wouldn't this mean a physical axis sheet is ok if that's where the line is? At least if handwritten, then a computer never even touched it. But I realize that's a different topic than most other rules so maybe it makes sense for that to be an exception.

~justin3 months ago

has anything been said on the status of physical references? maybe they are being banned, it'd be a useful clarification

Threadfinn3 months ago

It got lost somewhere in this thread, but i think they said all resources are banned for triangulation, including printed axis sheets.

maskers3 months ago(edited)

yeah rohkx said physical sheets for triangulation are getting banned too in mod chat

~justin3 months ago

heartbreaking

LISP BEAMER3 months ago

https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1515054331936903358/1523076407536648422

~justin3 months ago(edited)

I read that to be about sized digital references at the time, maybe I'm wrong though (regardless I trust maskers)

LISP BEAMER3 months ago

No resources means no resources

Threadfinn3 months ago

So triangulation follows a unique ruleset where ALL resources are banned. Should the board be the same way? If not then I would think you can mark the board yourself.

Threadfinn3 months ago

And currently you are allowed to mark the board since there aren't rules against it yet

Apparently A Chicken3 months ago

Ngl I’ll probably still forget the goal I’m trying to do even if I mark it

maskers3 months ago(edited)

i think it could be enough of a gray area right now to be banned
though i don't think it's too important since either way id want rules to be clarified

like if you mark a goal every time it's completed, now ts is using the state of the board which is banned

LISP BEAMER3 months ago

Personally I don't think it's that deep marking the board in whatever way you do isn't all of a sudden going to make a much better player there are millions of things to focus on and improve (not flaming you individually just saying the game has so many ways to improve at)

Threadfinn3 months ago

Partly related, but I feel like toolscreen should be fully banned. A lot of its functionality doesn't matter since calc is now banned and f11 can do the same as the other resizes, which are less useful than in 1.16. But the rest of toolscreen's functionality is already in a grey area under src rules, and is even less clear for draftout. (Like marking board as an example). Banning it would help with the vanillaness and accessibility of draftout without removing any key features that are needed to play.

~justin3 months ago(edited)

everything toolscreen does, other tools are allowed to do*. it's silly to collapse conversations to toolscreen, even if it is currently the most popular tool of its class, because most of what it does was adopted from other places
*maybe excluding cursor displacement fix

maskers3 months ago(edited)

like all of toolscreen's functionality can be done without it, banning it doesn't solve the other rules questions

Threadfinn3 months ago

I don't really understand how mirrors work but I never saw anyone modding the piechart before toolscreen so I just assumed it was only really doable with toolscreen.

maskers3 months ago

i am still using obs for mirrors, you have an obs projector in the background that's visible when the game isn't in fullscreen

Threadfinn3 months ago

Ah ok

ayhay3 months ago

are calculators banned?

ayhay3 months ago

like real calculators

ayhay3 months ago

not ninja brain bot

Threadfinn3 months ago

Yes

ayhay3 months ago

dalright

Threadfinn3 months ago

Which is interesting to me. Why ban 4 function calculators now, and why have more advanced calculators always been banned by src? Like if I wanted to manually calculate boateye I probably couldn't do it without at least a trigonometry capable calculator, but that's never been allowed even though a tool using those functions in a specific way is.

Apparently A Chicken3 months ago

Wait i might be stupid what does src mean again

Threadfinn3 months ago

Speedrun.com

Apparently A Chicken3 months ago

Ohh

Apparently A Chicken3 months ago

That make sense

~justin3 months ago(edited)

my guess as to why the structure of the calc rules is what it is is upon calc unban, the rules were made such that the foundation was to ban everything that could conceivably be used as a stronghold calculator (including static resources), and then allow specific tools from there, to make sure the bypasses created during the calc 'ban' were regulated the same as bona fide calculators.

Threadfinn3 months ago

Ok so it's basically just that it's banned by default, and no cared to argue to get it unbanned since it just doesn't matter?

Threadfinn3 months ago

Kinda like a lot of glitches being banned only because nobody's wanted to use them yet?

~justin3 months ago(edited)

for obvious reasons, post unban there has been extreme inertia against modifying calculator policy again. I see the argument for unbanning physical calculators for src, but calc rules are typically just not touched. I can't see a world in which we allow programming calculators either, so it couldn't be a clean unban.

maskers3 months ago

i heavily disagree, i think this would be quite impactful
this is something that would be relevant every game, and keeping track of goals / not forgetting them is like one of the core skills in draftout that people are pretty bad at, compared to perfection, and i think external tools have a lot of potential to help with it

Threadfinn3 months ago

Even feinberg sometimes just doesn't see a goal or forgets about one. If this could help even the top player I think it would be very impactful lower down.

maskers3 months ago

another idea i had would be something like marking what you need, i.e. whether you need amethyst, so if you see a geode you instantly know if you need it
which also feels like a gray area between learning the state of the board and note taking, i assume the intent wasn't to ban note taking about the board

Threadfinn3 months ago

I assumed that as long as you create the notes yourself it's ok, as long as it isn't a program reading the game.

But then if I build a sheet with all the goals and their requirements, I could manually select which goals are on the board and have it output a list of everything I need based on which cells I mark. This feels like it should be banned since it removes a lot of decision making, but it's entirely separate from the game, it isn't reading the board.

And this then creates the issue of where to draw the line.

Threadfinn3 months ago

Something like f3c or chat for coords is also an example of midmatch notetaking. It seems like this is intended to be allowed, since f3c isn't being entirely removed but just slightly changed

DriftSythe3 months ago

in my opinion if you're putting tape over your screen or something else that you're manually doing in real life to change the visibility of the board it's fine but if it's something automatic done in toolscreen to make completed goals like black or less visible or smthing I think that shouldn't be allowed

maskers3 months ago

your example utilizes the state of the board still, which isn't allowed

Threadfinn3 months ago

But like am I allowed to make a note to remember amethyst, or can I only do that mentally?

maskers3 months ago(edited)

yeah the extreme end of it is saying that writing "need amethyst" into notepad isn't allowed because notepad now knows information about the board, that one of the amethyst goals is there
where would be the line? idk

Threadfinn3 months ago

Or even a sticky note

maskers3 months ago

this is my interpretation but i think this was clearly meant to be banned with how the rules are written

Blad3 months ago

how are we checking if people are really not using a calc

Blad3 months ago

is there any way

maskers3 months ago

https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1515054331936903358/1523085392327217333

Threadfinn3 months ago

I think you're right. The trouble is it's s a continuous spectrum from writing on piece of paper taking us all the way to a detailed Excel sheet, with a lot of intermediate steps that become unclear.

Apparently A Chicken3 months ago

They could just make it so they can’t see the angle of where you are looking at

Threadfinn3 months ago

Unless sticky notes about goals are in fact banned currently.

~justin3 months ago(edited)

you can solve for the angle with two positions, but it would require atan and trig tables are certainly banned too, and you can try approximation methods, but 4 function calcs are banned too </3

Threadfinn3 months ago(edited)

And I would argue that if I enter information myself, the tool didn't observe the board. I observed the board, then gave the tool my observations. Like if I write on a piece of paper, the paper didn't observe the board. If I type in a word doc, it didn't observe the board. If I type in Excel, it didn't observe the board, even if it then gives me an output based on my input.

Somehow it feels like the Excel sheet and only the sheet is banned even though the level of observation it makes is the same.

~justin3 months ago

I'm not sure what your position is, you're just convincing me it it's very easy to use excel in a way that would act as an (presumably unwanted) external tool ("gives me an output based on my input")

~justin3 months ago(edited)

maybe we need flashcards with goals on the front and resources on the back and then you pick the ones you have and lay them out

Threadfinn3 months ago

Tbh I don't really have a position either way.

Threadfinn3 months ago

Yeah and how is this different from being in an Excel sheet.

Threadfinn3 months ago

I hate myself rn because I never liked calc being allowed for speedrunning and I'm now understanding exactly how it got allowed

2

~justin3 months ago

doesn't have quite the same infinite reducibility of digital, where you can turn one case into any other case

~justin3 months ago(edited)

I guess you can build a device where you press buttons for goals and it displays resources

Threadfinn3 months ago

Maybe the conclusion is that you aren't allowed any form of notes at all about current goals?

Threadfinn3 months ago

This would lead to the simplest possible interpretation of the rule.

chezbgone3 months ago

does this imply you cant search the wiki

Threadfinn3 months ago

idk

Threadfinn3 months ago

True if you search the wiki, the wiki and browser history have information about your current tasks. No different than a sheet that tells you what you need for each task.

1

~justin3 months ago(edited)

External tools and resources must not observe or utilize the state of a Draftout board in an ongoing match. For example, a tool that takes an input of some or all of the goals of a board would not be allowed to be used during a match.

lol, this would easily contradict a reading of this that applies to physical devices, I didn't read the rule. now the question is if some use of flashcards can be construed as a tools or resource that utilizes state

.

Threadfinn3 months ago

Yeah I mean, if you write something down technically the paper did take an input

~justin3 months ago

this is getting tortured :P

Threadfinn3 months ago

But also the wiki is taking inputs about your current goals and we know that's allowed.

Threadfinn3 months ago

I'm so confused and now it's 2am I was about to go to sleep until I started this discussion

Threadfinn3 months ago

Maybe rowl or rohks or marin can clarify in the morning.

maskers3 months ago

id imagine the line is still to be decided

Apparently A Chicken3 months ago

I feel like the wiki should be allow

maskers3 months ago

i now feel like wiki/external resources shouldn't be allowed

Threadfinn3 months ago

I started by thinking that wiki should be allowed, marking board shouldn't. Then I went through to thinking almost everything should be allowed. Now I think nothing external should be allowed.

Threadfinn3 months ago

I feel like the line should be drawn somewhere at the point where external resources can be helpful to learn the game, but aren't strong enough to have any real benefits for guardian+ players. Idk how to draw that line though.

Apparently A Chicken3 months ago

Wouldn’t the wiki also be good if a new player wanted to try draftout and don’t know how to get 90% of the thing on the board

Threadfinn3 months ago(edited)

Yeah like if all resources are banned most games below gold end in failure. Even up through amethyst you'll have some people unable to complete certain goals.

Lightning3 months ago

isnt the wiki just specifically whitelisted by draftout rules

Threadfinn3 months ago

Wiki isn't really helpful during a game at the top level since they probably know most things well enough. But ig even in warden there's probably still occasional times they can benefit from looking at the wiki.

Threadfinn3 months ago

It is, but how do you differentiate it from an Excel sheet with all the goal requirements?

Threadfinn3 months ago

Some of the goals you can literally just type directly into the wiki for instructions, like all the advancement ones.

Threadfinn3 months ago

But I don't think you could do that with an Excel resource sheet

Threadfinn3 months ago

And I was also discussing this earlier, but what about AI? It feels like it's somewhere between backseating and external resources use, but idk if it's allowed or not.
Here's some recent discussion on the potential uses of AI, just read through this and the following messages.
https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1509394286423048202/1523032552518975670

Lightning3 months ago

excel isnt whitelisted

Lightning3 months ago

maybe thats shortsighted but idk

Lightning3 months ago

ai should just not be allowed imo

Threadfinn3 months ago

But like what about Google? It isn't whitelisted either.

Threadfinn3 months ago

Or paper

Lightning3 months ago

yeah its weird

Threadfinn3 months ago

And I feel like Excel is covered under: Other than the above exceptions, external tool and resource rules mirror the speedrun rules, so NinjabrainBot and other speedrun-legal tools and sheets are allowed

Nbb is banned now, but external tools are allowed by default as long as they don't use f3

Threadfinn3 months ago

Wiki is just specified as being a protected right for draftout players

Threadfinn3 months ago

And does AI count as manually looking up information?

Apparently A Chicken3 months ago

At this point draftout should just add a wiki

Lightning3 months ago

i think its difficult to draw a clear line but for most stuff its pretty obvious what should be legal and what not, it might not be a clear line but for example i dont think anyone reasonable would have said a 1 tb spreadsheet would be allowed before it actually was

Lightning3 months ago

people just like to push boundaries of whats legal

Threadfinn3 months ago

Yeah but the issue is the gradual progression. It started at kb, then mb, then gb, until it hit tb. But where do you ban it?

Apparently A Chicken3 months ago

The issue is how would one enforce it

Lightning3 months ago

something may be legal but the spirit of the idea is definitely that it shouldnt be

Lightning3 months ago

yeah thats the problem

Lightning3 months ago

its hard to solve i think

Threadfinn3 months ago

It is hard to solve without taking the extremes of either banning or allowing everything.

Threadfinn3 months ago

With triangulation they picked total ban.

Threadfinn3 months ago

But currently everything else seems to be mostly allowed.

Apparently A Chicken3 months ago

Ban triangulation allow cheat sheet

hset3 months ago

maybe the point eye is pointing to can be randomly tilted to the side a couple of blocks from the actual 8,8 and this tilt gets smaller the closer to stronghold you measure so it doesnt affect normal measures but at least breaks single eye measures?

hset3 months ago

i wasnt really looking into technical details but if its possible to tilt eye so that it only breaks tall resolution signle eye measures i think it should be done

hset3 months ago

also maybe somehow make game internal clipboard so outside of game processes cant access whats inside and people who want to cheat will at least have to spend time retyping f3+c's

Apparently A Chicken3 months ago

Or just remove the ability to f3+c

hset3 months ago

if this option is even considered only the angle should be removed from it because i for example use it to store nether portal coords on clipboard
but i dont think its a good idea

maskers3 months ago

if someone will want to cheat, they'll find a way to anyway
anything past making ninjabrainbot not work ootb is an overkill imo

maskers3 months ago

iirc it has been clarified that yeah it's fine, the line is drawn at having an actual human helping you

1

Lightning3 months ago(edited)

~~what if i take a screenshot of the board and ask the ai what the best line would be~~

Lightning3 months ago

i dont think that should be allowed

maskers3 months ago

i mean atp it's about external tools learning the board

maskers3 months ago

which is a separate rule

Rudy3 months ago

ai doesnt know the seed bro

Rudy3 months ago

or what any of the icons mean aga

Lightning3 months ago

yeah true

Apparently A Chicken3 months ago

I forgot people also use f3+c to remember coord

Apparently A Chicken3 months ago

Removing the angle would just be the best solution to f3+c

3

Rudy3 months ago

mhm its just modifying the message to make it incompatible with nb, or removing/simplifying angle

Apparently A Chicken3 months ago

I mean like you could also just use f3+I for coord

Rudy3 months ago

yeah but muscle memory, and f3 c is easier to hotkey without rebinding. they have 0 intention of disabling f3+c they have stated

hset3 months ago

meta draftout lan strategy will be to bring a ruler and a circular clock (the ones that are on the walls) and you say the clock is for tracking time but then use its circular shape, minute marks and the ruler to secretly calculate sines of needed values and 2nd portal right above stronghold

Apparently A Chicken3 months ago

What if we turn draftout into a virus

shrddr3 months ago

what if jojo made draftout

Apparently A Chicken3 months ago(edited)

What if we add a description to the goal for lower ranks or just for casual

chloe3 months ago

awesome change

chloe3 months ago

divine was killed in 1.18 afaik

chloe3 months ago

they made salts not exist and that was like. half the reason divine divined

chloe3 months ago

or most of the reason idk

chloe3 months ago

if it wasnt killed fully id imagine its still been rendered obsolete

chloe3 months ago

anyways yeah i think banning ninbot is the best thing to do, especially while draftout is in beta

chloe3 months ago

good change

1

r0hkxOP3 months ago

i think our intent for the rules would be to not allow this

r0hkxOP3 months ago

or otherwise marking up the board using toolscreen or similar

r0hkxOP3 months ago

i suppose if you had a glossy monitor and a whiteboard marker, just drawing on the screen should be allowed

r0hkxOP3 months ago

and digital equivalents of that would probably be allowed as well

r0hkxOP3 months ago

but anything that uses the board/square position/sizes would probably be where the line was drawn

r0hkxOP3 months ago

and like i guess you could make a physical jig that goes over your monitor and have like colored plastic tiles that you can slide in and out of it

r0hkxOP3 months ago

but a digital equivalent would not be allowed

r0hkxOP3 months ago

Forwarded

this was discussed before and we ultimately agree that it removes a huge part of the skill in reading and remembering the board

r0hkxOP3 months ago

ok this is actually a very good question. the actual wording of the planned rule bans using "Reference sheets containing information that can assist with locating the stronghold using in-world measurements or seed-specific details", so using the eye of ender wiki page or a stronghold rings chart will remain allowed, since they don't relate to in-world measurements or seed-specific details

r0hkxOP3 months ago(edited)

that wording isn't final, but thats the intent at least

1

r0hkxOP3 months ago

yeah this rule isn't very clear and is overly broad. imo there shouldn't be any distinction of physical and digital resources/tools, but in the sense that physical things can also be banned. like if we banned using minecraft.wiki we would also ban printing it out or using goal flashcards or something

1

r0hkxOP3 months ago

the idea for draftout competitive rules is that they should align pretty closely with eventual tournament rules. so like if you aren't allowed to bring your perfect binder to your desk at a lan tournament, you wouldn't be able to use it in competitive queue either

galoomba3 months ago

that's one hell of a conclusion to jump to

7rowl3 months ago

Never said this will affect any of the decisions I make in the future etc. etc.

7rowl3 months ago

I just dont know why so many people would be so adamant about learning about something that shouldnt be their headache

7rowl3 months ago

I mean I see a perspective where everybody wants to have an even playing field and ensure that rules are enforced but idk why so many people are asking "how EXACTLY are you going to enforce these rules"

Northgical3 months ago

Not a draftout guy (yet) but honestly I’m surprised axis triangulation is also banned, I know you rarely ever have to get to The End anyways unless someone picks a task where you need to get to one but damn

Northgical3 months ago

Keima method stocks going up probably

7rowl3 months ago

tldr you need to draw a line somewhere and the only clear and 100% unambigious line is no spreadsheets at all

Northgical3 months ago

ohh

1

Northgical3 months ago

yea fairs

sonya3 months ago

I would be way rather in support of calculators if spreadsheets are allowed, the only possible way i could think of is "only THIS one is allowed" which i think isn't much better. sheetless axis is cool

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

all non stronghold related resources will still be allowed right

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

like the list of tulip coords or the videos in resources or whatever

Aurora3 months ago(edited)

draftout v1.15.0: googling recipes is banned

Aurora3 months ago

/s

sonya3 months ago

I mean that should be a thing in the future...

yuukster3 months ago

hello old friends, nice to still see some familiar faces in the community :) cool to see there's a lot of discussions relating to implementing rules that are not enforced in ranked or the src leaderboards

let me know if any of the assumptions i made are wrong

the gist i've seen so far is that
1) we want to set a standard of banning external software/tools due to the public perception of such tools being "cheating,"
where ninjabrainbot is seen as "cheating" because it offloads the effort of doing mental math or memorizing a bunch of set numbers, which in turn reduces the impressiveness of the playing experience,
and
2) ensure the outcome of these modified rules is that it doesn't lead into more silly strats being meta, such as referencing a binder of spreadsheets or the creation of other loophole external tools

and i assume(?) that there are no plans in place at this stage to implement modifications to this mod so that it prevents or detects the usage of external tools, because there is only so much that could be done to detect for these unless someone was at the player's desk in person to monitor

so for that reason, these rules will primarily be run on an honor code basis

in that case, i feel the honor code could be simple, specifying what is allowed/not allowed where any introduction of new tools need permission.

however, I feel honor codes only work well when everyone in the community knows each other, but for a player base this large, it is inevitable there will be several bad apples

How about instead of enforcing this no calc rule across all games, it's enforced on a per-game basis?
maybe each player sets a preference for how they play,
and for each match, they have to come to an agreement with the other player through an in-game pop-up to either ban or not ban calc
(and if no agreement can be made, it defaults to calc not being banned)
and each game is marked as having calc banned or unbanned

yuukster3 months ago

And for tournies, they are banned by default if that's what the organizers prefer

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

okbuddydraftout level post

maskers3 months ago(edited)

this would maybe make sense if ranked tried to ban calc? but for draftout ninjabrainbot is really not that impactful, it affects like <10% of games id want to say, and trying to maintain two versions of rules and having players press extra buttons sounds like extra effort that wouldn't be worth it

maskers3 months ago

however, I feel honor codes only work well when everyone in the community knows each other, but for a player base this large, it is inevitable there will be several bad apples

there will always be ways to cheat, with calc allowed or without, that are also way more impactful

yuukster3 months ago

it affects like <10% of games

oh gotcha, good to know

trying to maintain two versions of rules and having players play extra buttons sounds like extra effort that wouldn't be worth it

can u clarify by "extra buttons"?
and why would it not be worth it, i feel most people are capable of memorizing the difference in rules between two game formats

maskers3 months ago

i just meant having an extra step pre game of agreeing on rules

pinkpuff3 months ago

They did say theres plans in place to break draftouts compatibility with nbb so kind of moot point there

yuukster3 months ago

oh gotcha

i saw it as just a default setting you set, and just one extra step confirming the rules for the game before the game starts

yuukster3 months ago

gotcha
though with anything with this game and how people innovate, people will always think of ways to get around it
there's only so much that can be enforced purely from implementing technical barriers
because in principle, any new features always results in new strats that could be created

yuukster3 months ago

but yea, i don't think rules need to be proactively specific down to the millimeter like how we have it for the SRC leaderboards if we want to go with the honor code solution
where if you're not sure, ask and confirm
and retroactively, we add more details to the rules based on all that was asked and confirmed by staff

pinkpuff3 months ago

Yeah since theres hardly any end goals in the first place i just dont imagine people are going to try so hard to cheat on that one thing. A lot of work for maybe 1 goal every 10 games. And with things like axis sheet being banned , the other tech is still really good so its just gonna be easier to learn the legal ways in pretty much every case than try to find cheat workarounds

hset3 months ago

i dont understand why removing parts of the skill can be bad at all. less parts of the skill means other parts get bigger and as i remember reading somewhere draftout ideology was to maximize part of the skill decision-making takes

hset3 months ago(edited)

im 90% sure most people that ask about this are not even thinking about using that knowledge not outside draftout, why would basic curiosity not make sense here? personally, i used to code a lot of minecraft plugins, mods and other stuff and i also do a lot of math and what kind of measures can be performed to maximize barrier one needs to go through to cheat seems like a very interesting question to me and i even theorized in this thread about what could be done already and im naturally also be interested in solutions other people came up with.

im not actually trying to get this question answered i just crashed out a bit about you not understanding why so many people ask this, sorry

Vivian3 months ago

headcalcing sin isnt that hard

AuraZz3 months ago

is there a guide to this anywhere? and do you mean doing mental math or with pen and paper?

AuraZz3 months ago

haven’t heard anyone even talk abt calcless boat eye before

maskers3 months ago(edited)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14ZAhQjf_dHnlHHDp53bbYo9YQ5SIUmSLKrORSHXzLKA/edit?usp=sharing the (almost?) 16k height level accuracy for measuring without resizing part

chloe3 months ago

what server is that

maskers3 months ago

javacord im sorry

chloe3 months ago

oh gg

maskers3 months ago

fulleye guide

chloe3 months ago

oh fulleye

chloe3 months ago

that gets close without resizing and better with

chloe3 months ago

i was thinking you were referring to https://frontcage.com/t/resizeless-boat-eye/86

Resizeless Boat Eye

This is a method I have developed for measuring eyes with Ninjabrain Bot by varying the in-game FOV slider instead of resizing the game window. Although it can achieve even better precision than the standard 16384-high window method, it comes with some RTA timeloss so I don’t expect it to become the new meta strategy. It is however a viable al...

chloe3 months ago(edited)

idk if this could be memorized in any way but yeah resizes arent required for boat eye accuracy

maskers3 months ago

o interesting haven't seen it before

AuraZz3 months ago

it seems like rohkx was talking about both this and doing the nbb math yourself, do you have anything on the second part? this is cool tho

r0hkxOP3 months ago

i was thinking of this

r0hkxOP3 months ago(edited)

there was discussion about this in mcsr discussioncord a while back. from what i understand you'd have to memorize a few thousand "things" (idr what) but its not like crazy unreasonable to do

AuraZz3 months ago

do you have a link to it or did it never make it out of discussion cord

r0hkxOP3 months ago

there isn't really anything to link idt

r0hkxOP3 months ago

i looked for a bit but couldn't find anything

r0hkxOP3 months ago

idt sharpie ever made anything, just had the idea

r0hkxOP3 months ago

i think it would be like, you memorize every eye angle, always measure from 0 0 in each chunk, then memorize offsets (chunk coord difference on x and z) for each angle of the eye

r0hkxOP3 months ago

i could be very wrong though

AuraZz3 months ago

that sounds like it would work yeah

r0hkxOP3 months ago

there are also some symmetries and other things that mean you don't need to memorize 36000 cases

AuraZz3 months ago

yeah was about to say there’s much less info than you’d expect from that bc of symmetries

r0hkxOP3 months ago

and i think sharpie was saying there are probably some compression techniques that exist as well

r0hkxOP3 months ago

even if it were 36000 cases, that is humanly possible at the very least

AuraZz3 months ago

the main issue i see is how to deal with edge cases where the angle is arctan(1/n) for natural n

AuraZz3 months ago

i think theyre rare enough that it shouldnt matter very much on average tho

chloe3 months ago

i think i remember the discussion slighlty

chloe3 months ago

i remember it being beneficial to stand in the same point in the chunk

chloe3 months ago

and i remember it being in the thousands? but something about a memoric

r0hkxOP3 months ago

i think this is a problem for calculator as well

AuraZz3 months ago

yea with nbb it would just be measuring a 2nd eye

chloe3 months ago

sharpie made it sound very possible

chloe3 months ago

Oh yeah thius

chloe3 months ago

you only need to memorize 45 degrees

chloe3 months ago

Or whatever

AuraZz3 months ago

you’d also have to be able to get to 3dp of precision on 0,0 in the chunk which sounds decently hard

r0hkxOP3 months ago

i wonder if you could do .3 .3

r0hkxOP3 months ago

or always 0.3 0.3 in the chunk

AuraZz3 months ago

ohhhhh

r0hkxOP3 months ago

since that is easy to line up

AuraZz3 months ago

thats smart

chloe3 months ago

.0 .0 isnt that hard at all to lineup

r0hkxOP3 months ago

its slow

chloe3 months ago

noit isnt, let me record

AuraZz3 months ago(edited)

is there a block u can place for .0 .0 or something

r0hkxOP3 months ago

to 3 decimal points?

chloe3 months ago

let me make sure it works in modern version though

chloe3 months ago

it may not

chloe3 months ago

its way more scuffed in modern version

chloe3 months ago

yeahh gg

chloe3 months ago

in 1.16 you can just put a boat in the corner and easily get .000 but in modern version you cant put boats like that

nsla3 months ago

.3 .3 is just gonna always be faster

chloe3 months ago

yeah

nsla3 months ago

oh actually ur right for this

nsla3 months ago

idk when they changed boats

AuraZz3 months ago

i don’t see a reason .3 would be worse, it would just be different numbers than .0

chloe3 months ago

yeah

AuraZz3 months ago

defs gonna look into this and try figure out if its viable

chloe3 months ago

i mean idk sharpie made it sound like being some specific point in the chunk was better

chloe3 months ago

i think 4,4 was the best or something

chloe3 months ago

maybe 8,8

chloe3 months ago

idk im going off memory on a 2+ year old conversation

chloe3 months ago

cause yeah different numbers but are those numbers harder to memorize

AuraZz3 months ago

ye that might be it

1

AuraZz3 months ago

idk

chloe3 months ago

i remember him making / wanting to make a thing to sim what the best position in a chunk is for memorization

chloe3 months ago

i dont think that was ever done

chloe3 months ago

but i think it was clear that he thought there would be an optimal position

AuraZz3 months ago

what would make a set of numbers good for memorisation

chloe3 months ago

idk

chloe3 months ago

memorics n shi

chloe3 months ago

i think memorizing boat eye accuracy without calc is probably possible but i doubt viable when you can just do sheetless and be fine

chloe3 months ago

idk.

chloe3 months ago

i guess its possiblbe though

AuraZz3 months ago

how reliable is perfect sheetless

chloe3 months ago

i do not know

AuraZz3 months ago

i feel like it was bad in 10k nri even with everyone optimising it

AuraZz3 months ago

idk

chloe3 months ago

f3+c axis with 2 chunk should hit like almost every time in my experience

chloe3 months ago

but thats not sheetless

chloe3 months ago

i dont think sheetless loses accuracy

chloe3 months ago

i just dont know the math

AuraZz3 months ago

yea i guess the only real benefit would be only measuring 1 eye

chloe3 months ago

1 eye and like some timesave

7rowl3 months ago

from my experience and watching fein, sheetless if measured correctly, is within 4 chunks 95% of the time

2

chloe3 months ago

yeah that sounds about right

7rowl3 months ago(edited)

which for purposes of draftout is more than good enouhg

chloe3 months ago

i dont think fein does f3c for sheetless though

chloe3 months ago

unless that changed

7rowl3 months ago

he doesnt

chloe3 months ago

yeah so i imagine technically you can get more accruate

chloe3 months ago

but like

chloe3 months ago

prob not to an extent where its worth it

chloe3 months ago

i think its cool to think of boateye as something you can do without calc

AuraZz3 months ago

is there a desmos or tool anywhere showing first ring strongholds i wanna look into calcless boat eye

chloe3 months ago

but i think legit no one has done that for good reason

AuraZz3 months ago

maybe the ‘good reason’ is lack of effort / serious consideration

(probably not)

chloe3 months ago

something to consider though is ninbot considers biome snapping afaik, while i dont think a calcless vesion would

chloe3 months ago

so i imagine you would lose accuracy on calcless

chloe3 months ago

idk lol i dont even remember why calcless boateye was brought up

chloe3 months ago

its propagandas

AuraZz3 months ago

in theory it should be able to if you create a probability heatmap and account for that in the sheet

AuraZz3 months ago

i’ll look into it im rly curious

chloe3 months ago

sheet

chloe3 months ago

AuraZz3 months ago

it would be a sheet assigning each godsens angle an x and z offset i assume

chloe3 months ago

that reminds me

chloe3 months ago

i know some people have talked about sheets and wondering why those are getting banned aswell, to me it makes sense cause there are method of doing nocalc/nof3 with sheet that are more advanced math than axis (afaik), it makes sense to me cause its likee. different sheets can have different amounts of math put into them. its impossible to draw a line that can be followed for any given sheet, so it makes sense to me that you would just ban all of them cause they all give an advantage that isnt in the game itself and instead predetermined. memorizing smaller sheets is a skill and i think that being encouraged is a really good thing for the draftout team to be going, it gives me a lot of hope for the future of it

11

chloe3 months ago(edited)

i can think of 3 methods of calcless trig that all have different amount of maths put into them, and if sheets are allowed its just impossible to know where that line is and why in an intutive way

chloe3 months ago

external tools are lame anyways

chloe3 months ago

i wasnt really expecting the rule change but im all for it and i think the draftout team is doing wonderful with that

Doc3 months ago

i'm all for banning external tools. if that's where the line gets drawn i honestly wouldn't even mind a wiki ban

chloe3 months ago

yeah a wiki ban is chill imo cause like. going into a competitive match should be about your skillset and what you know about minecraft and draftout. looking shit up midgame is just taking away from that skill

chloe3 months ago

i wouldnt mind wiki in casual matches though

Threadfinn3 months ago

After the discussion I had here last night, I think it makes sense to fully ban all external resources, including wiki, for competitive matches. Otherwise you end up with confusing and arbitrary lines regarding what is and isn't allowed.

2

sonya3 months ago

I hope we get a "Googling Gary..." pop up every time opponent tabs out of the game like on Cine2Nerdle

1

Threadfinn3 months ago

I also think it makes sense to have a different ruleset for lower elo. I feel like looking up information takes away from the skill of the game and is bad to have at a high level, but at lower elo if you take that ability away a lot of people who are just trying to learn will struggle too much to complete many goals. I know competitive is intended as a competitive mode rather than a learning mode, but with the time limit imposed on quickplay beginners can't use quickplay to practice. The average match time even all the way up in diamond is still longer than the time limit for quickplay, so for 99% of players quickplay will be strategically very different than competitive, making it difficult to use for any practice other than earlygame goals and general minecraft mechanics.

I think it's fair to say that competitive integrity is less important for average skilled players than it is for leaderboard position players. Most average players aren't really competing in any way other than to see of they can improve, and how well they do doesn't significantly affect anyone else. Since lower elo doesn't matter quite as much, it would make sense to allow some external resources for gold and below, maybe even for amethyst, but fully ban all resources above a certain elo threshold.

1

Threadfinn3 months ago

If anyone's curious there was about 100 messages starting here https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1515054331936903358/1523217715358208021 ending around here https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1515054331936903358/1523311020897206302 from mostly me, maskers, and justin that convinced me it's impossible to have clear cutoffs for what is and isn't allowed without it being really arbitrary and hard to understand.

Ellivers3 months ago

I'm against a wiki ban. As opposed to a sheet which is used as a tool with variable inputs, the wiki is just a source of static information. It will be the same every time.
If a player wants to waste time looking something up, I think they should be allowed to do so. Especially if it would otherwise mean a rule difference between ranks (which I don't think is a good idea)

Ellivers3 months ago

No matter what seed you're in, what the stronghold coords are, if you're in or out of a match, the information will be the same.

2

~justin3 months ago

it was a part of the pixel perfect (aka. boat eye) reveal stream
https://youtu.be/0t9BcUhjDWs?t=3521 (58:41-1:08:12)

1

Threadfinn3 months ago

The wiki isn't static. It takes your input (whatever you type in the searchbl bar) and gives you an output containing information on how to complete a goal. What if I download the entire wiki into a 2 column spreadsheet, 1 for the page title and one for the link to that wiki page. Functionally it's identical to searching the wiki, but it's a sheet now.

What if instead of directly using wiki links and pages, I made a sheet with the titles of all draftout goals along with their requirements? For some goals, such as advancement goals, the input vs output is entirely identical between the sheet and the wiki.

Threadfinn3 months ago

What if I create a draftout wiki site with all the goals, where everyone can edit to add the best strats? It would remove almost all the decision making for low elo players. All that would be left would be seed routing and mechanics.

Threadfinn3 months ago

What about AI?, in many cases it will give the same answer as asking in general chat.

Ellivers3 months ago

I think all of that is fine

Threadfinn3 months ago

It's not really significantly different from an axis sheet though. The only real difference is that the axis sheet is based on f3 information.

Ellivers3 months ago

Not all wiki pages are relevant for all matches you play, but in general the "answer" you will find by looking at the wiki is always the same. The information you're looking for on an axis sheet will be different every time you use it. It's also a difference between what is essentially a calculator, and digestible information that you can remember.

Ellivers3 months ago

The wiki also has calculators in it, and I think those can be banned

Threadfinn3 months ago

The answer the wiki gives isn't the same every match, because what you search on the wiki is different depending on the board state.

Ellivers3 months ago(edited)

Does looking something up on the wiki give you an advantage over someone who already knows that information? Obviously not

r0hkxOP3 months ago

the important difference here is not based on f3 info, but that its specifically helping you go from eye measurements to stronghold location. that is what is getting banned specifically. it doesn't matter what format that info is in, whether its a calculator, sheet, printed paper, or a cat

r0hkxOP3 months ago

but yes it is an arbitrary line

r0hkxOP3 months ago

between stronghold triangulation info and other info

Threadfinn3 months ago

Yeah that's all I meant

AuraZz3 months ago

1:19:05 "i dunno how I say your name, 'woofdoggo' if you're still here"

AuraZz3 months ago

from the little i've watched this like hasn't been developed nearly as much as i would've figured, he also uses a math-based approach rather than sheet which I find interesting

AuraZz3 months ago(edited)

i feel like it has potential, just gotta reinvent the wheel and figure out all the shit the tech-based community did years ago first

BlueAxolol3 months ago

i feel like im late to the conversation but part of the fun of playing games for me and alot of other people i think is to have your friends with you irl or in vc calling you an idiot because you forgot to grab the sugarcane 5 minutes ago or yelling at you that you forgot something in the village just as your leaving or shouting at you that theres diamonds on screen while you struggle to find them for 30 seconds i dont really think of it as backseating but playing with friends and atleast from my personal experience i probably wont play any more draftout if backseating stays banned

2

closure3 months ago

i mean you can still backseat in quickplay

closure3 months ago

i do think this problem does exist for streamers though, there's not really much to talk about besides what's going on, i think fein talked about it yesterday

Emily3 months ago

backseating is only banned in competitive ranked queue, which is fair as draftout is a 1v1 game not 1vs discord call

BlueAxolol3 months ago

ranked is a 1v1 game but we allow it

Emily3 months ago

ranked has FAR less variance than draftout, its beyond linear, its 2 completely different gamemodes

Doc3 months ago

backseating matters more here

Doc3 months ago

let me find rohkx's explanation

Doc3 months ago

https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1515054331936903358/1515064893727047770

Doc3 months ago

this message and the few after it do a good job explaining backseating in draftout

lelxdme3 months ago

I really wonder how those no sheet no wiki no backseat rule can be enforced if the player just not stream or record their gameplay

Emily3 months ago

rowls thoughts are so evergreen

lelxdme3 months ago

Did not read that part of the conversation sry

Emily3 months ago

all good, staffs not rly gonna publically lay out how they catch/enforce things

BlueAxolol3 months ago

idk maybe its an arbitrary line but i think i should be able to be in call with my friends while queueing and them make minor comments so long as theyre not full on backseating

1

Emily3 months ago

they can joke about gameplay etc. but like they cant be helping you with tasks/stuff that you yourself wouldve missed, "you missed diamonds there" is backseaty, telling you you missed an imporant thing in village is backseating youd have missed them, its giving you an advantage vs your opp

Threadfinn3 months ago

I think you can as long as it isn't a constant stream of comments about your gameplay.

Threadfinn3 months ago

https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1515054331936903358/1516474739848118332

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

we should not use random rowl messages as rules when we have a rulebook

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

which says very clearly backseating is not allowed not "you can have a little backseating, as a treat"

Threadfinn3 months ago

The point is that backseating to try and get a better chance of winning is fundamentallly very different from talking to a friend while playing the game.

r0hkxOP3 months ago

this is true but also the punishments aren't outlined anywhere publicly yet, so that message is still relevant

r0hkxOP3 months ago

you may not backseat in competitive, but you're not getting permaed for it

r0hkxOP3 months ago

especially if you're not really backseating with the intention of playing at the highest level you possibly can

r0hkxOP3 months ago

but if you're not playing to be competitive and want to talk with friends during matches, quickplay is a better option than comp

Threadfinn3 months ago

I feel like quickplay is too different to get the real draftout experience, so casual players play comp because they still want to experience close games and want to win by completing a board rather than the time limit.

r0hkxOP3 months ago

that is fair, the more i think about it the more i think it makes sense to have a casual gamemode that's identical to comp just without visible ranks

r0hkxOP3 months ago

that would have to replace quickplay though since there isn't the player count for three queues

Threadfinn3 months ago

What about https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1523490059867656192

Threadfinn3 months ago

Because I do think there are times where people want a quick game

r0hkxOP3 months ago

too complex i think

Threadfinn3 months ago

Yeah maybe

r0hkxOP3 months ago(edited)

im not sure its possible to accommodate both people who want unranked games and shorter/faster games

r0hkxOP3 months ago

just because it would be splitting the 10% of the playerbase that isn't just playing comp

Apparently A Chicken3 months ago

If only ranked bot played draftout

Threadfinn3 months ago

Yeah I think it probably does need more people to make other game modes work.

chezbgone3 months ago

maybe quickplay doesn't stop at 30m, but both players get a new button labeled "decide game" that uses the current score as the final score (or start a tiebreaker)

chezbgone3 months ago

but maybe this will end up being the leading player pressing it immediately every time

r0hkxOP3 months ago(edited)

it could be like either player could draw without the other player having to agree past a certain time

r0hkxOP3 months ago

csgo had a system like that for overtime i think

r0hkxOP3 months ago

cs2 might still have it

r0hkxOP3 months ago

or am i thinking of valorant

r0hkxOP3 months ago

just like once you get into overtime there is a vote to draw the match, and as more rounds go you need less and less players to vote yes to draw it

EliteMaster3 months ago

u need the other player to agree cuz then they could just ff. But then theres the dilemma of not agreeing could cause ff too

r0hkxOP3 months ago

i think it would be like

r0hkxOP3 months ago

past 30 minutes, you can draw like you can ff

r0hkxOP3 months ago

just press the button and the match instantly ends for both players

r0hkxOP3 months ago

so you can insta end the match without taking a loss

DriftSythe3 months ago

what if you're able to leave the match after 30m and your opponent can continue playing if they want to

EliteMaster3 months ago

i think opponent continuing if they want to has been suggested

DriftSythe3 months ago

o

EliteMaster3 months ago

like in suggestions thread

EliteMaster3 months ago

i remember seeing it

smlavine3 months ago(edited)

Easy way to make the quick play "quicker" while still allowing for close games like comp would be to just shrink the board to a smaller amount of goals (15 or something?)

sam3 months ago

is it still true that you can make your fullscreen button effectively function as a zoom macro? and would that now be banned?

chloe3 months ago(edited)

i believe that only works for wide and thin

~justin3 months ago

you can't unfullscreen into oob?

sam3 months ago

i thought you could just stretch it beyond your monitor or smth, could be trolling

chloe3 months ago

i thought windows forced it into bounds

chloe3 months ago

maybe im just wrong

~justin3 months ago(edited)

anyway that would be banned as well, all oob res use is iirc (technically vanilla non-exclusive fullscreen works by being one px oob but we don't talk about that)

1

sam3 months ago

ok got it ty

Buzzaboo3 months ago

ur cooking w this one

1

WDS_Eagle3 months ago

This is so true, axis is literally harder to learn than ninbot (not boateye) so why are so many people so sure that beginners want to memorize a bunch of axis numbers if they want to be good at draftout rather than downloading toolscreen (still legal but not for zoom??) and ninbot

Feinberg3 months ago

you memorize two numbers

Feinberg3 months ago

4 jumps to the side

Feinberg3 months ago

and 1000 blocks / angle change

Feinberg3 months ago

GG thats it

Feinberg3 months ago

sheetless axis is also only two numbers of memorization (28 blocks to the side, 200 / angle change)

Feinberg3 months ago

the argument youre quoting is just wrong, people dont need to spend an hour memorizing values to find the stronghold. millions of people have found the stronghold without axis and will continue to do so

DriftSythe3 months ago

yea I don't get the argument of memorizing axis numbers when it's just like not the best way to go about finding the stronghold

WDS_Eagle3 months ago

people are talking about making it more beginner friendly, but I simply don't buy the idea learning the things that ninbot gives you (rings and measuring) is more beginner friendly than not.

When Couri made NRI no calc, I didn't see people say it made things more "beginner friendly" they talked about the advantage you had fein. That's because removing calcs is just a skill check. Which is fine, but not beginner friendly.

And for zoom, I really don't see how zoom is not vanilla but we want no fog in the nether or gamma 5. Removing fog is a great change, and so is brightness 500, because it helps prevent eye strains, but why remove zoom after changing those 2 things when the argument is we want draftout to be vanilla?

DriftSythe3 months ago

it's not more "beginner friendly" but it does lower the barrier of entry as you don't feel the need to have to setup an application in order to be on an even playing field
zoom is in no way vanilla, thick fog in the nether and not being able to see in caves basically makes the game unplayable which is why those are allowed despite them not being vanilla which isn't the case for zoom, you can still use vanilla mechanics like 30 fov or spyglass to zoom in, it's just the fact that you can resize your window out of your screen's bounds that makes zoom an issue imo

maskers3 months ago

im not sure how i feel about reducing fog honestly

maskers3 months ago

its just like a way less egregious version of birds eye view

DriftSythe3 months ago

I would probably just never go nether if there was vanilla fog

Feinberg3 months ago

did you even watch nri lmao i had the hardest time since i wasnt using the 2 decimal sheet

Feinberg3 months ago

and its beginner friendly because you dont need to download an external program and set it up

Feinberg3 months ago

you can make your own argument about literally any skill in the game not being beginner friendly because you have to learn

Feinberg3 months ago

bastions arent beginner friendly because the gold blocks are hidden on some of them and then new players cant get their trades

Feinberg3 months ago

while you are right that yes the game is harder if you dont have ninbot, which you can argue is not beginner friendly, its just a part of the game

Feinberg3 months ago

if you know no strats so much of the game is not beginner friendly

WDS_Eagle3 months ago

I'm not saying it was best for you I'm talking about the talk surrounding beforehand

WDS_Eagle3 months ago

Idk I just don't see this as big as learning a strat.

WDS_Eagle3 months ago

Right now people are making the argument this is a beginner friendly decision, where I'm saying that this makes it harder to do multiple goals if you want to start playing, and the difficulty and amount of things a beginner needs to learn is higher than it was a week ago.

I don't even really care about these in draftout too much, but I think calling it beginner friendly is just wrong

DriftSythe3 months ago

I think it's healthier for the game to have the method be learning a strategy over downloading an application and setting it up

1

Feinberg3 months ago

we will just agree to disagree then

1

Feinberg3 months ago

i value being able to just play the game without any external tools or help and that being enough to do the best possible

Feinberg3 months ago

and to me learning a strategy is much easier and much more rewarding than downloading a program to do the strat for you

2

maskers3 months ago

setting up ninjabrainbot has to be the hardest part of mcsr setup right now imo, and it barely matters for draftout

jes3 months ago(edited)

err not to be that guy but what is hard about it? like asking genuinely

maskers3 months ago

8.5 minutes in draconix's guide

jes3 months ago

as someone who has used it several times with ease

jes3 months ago

maybe it's cause i'm computer savvy but it felt like clicking a few toggles and f3 t for a few rounds so it calibrates

jes3 months ago

which you can do in singleplayer

jes3 months ago

this is unrelated to me supporting or not supporting ninbot btw i just want to see it from the perspective of someone else

maskers3 months ago(edited)

and then a lot of people will have issues past it of not being able to line up fast enough or not getting the right coords because of doing something wrong or having tech issues while setting it up, being on macos for instance
well i probably have survivor bias when i say "a lot" because of #public-help

maskers3 months ago

calibrating takes a while
you need to learn how to measure beforehand, which pixel to line up, set up resizing - you don't have to but if you don't itd be way harder for you to measure well & get good confidence on stronghold coords
you need to be aware of desync, if you're not you can miss the stronghold and not even know where to begin troubleshooting

DriftSythe3 months ago

from what I've seen over like half of public help in the ranked discord is just nbb help

jes3 months ago

that's fair to say tbh i have kind of been inactive on the discord side of things

jes3 months ago

i agree more with the thought that ninbot is tedious

EliteMaster3 months ago

not to mention atp, i feel like its no different than getting coords for structures in general

maskers3 months ago

really the main issue is that theres a lot of places where something can go wrong, and if something does go wrong its probably going to be hard for you to figure out on your own

jes3 months ago

this is totally fair to say and i agree w you

maskers3 months ago

also yeah i don't think theres a good reason for ninjabrainbot to calculate the ancient city region center coords to have been allowed apart from just the aa community being ok with it?
i can't think of any other structures you can use a calculator for

Arxyj3 months ago

i have never downloaded calc. It just always felt like a big time investment. And when im playing just for fun, not to push any leaderboards, i dont mind using the slower strat.
On the other hand, 4jump is easy. You just launch the game and try it. You can even try it in a match for the first time, if its 12-12 and last goal is enter end. You will fuck up, of course, but you can try. No need to decide beforhand to install something.
So this IMO makes it way more begginer friendly

nsla3 months ago

fein had an advantage because he is one of two people on the planet to bother learning a different eye measuring strategy in the situation of no ninjabrainbot. He deserved that advantage

pinkpuff3 months ago

Someone mentioned it earlier but might it be worth pinning a message explaining why the ban is taking place? or is that possibly something releasing alongside the update later? Just already been seeing twitch chats flood with the same 3 talking points since the announcement, would be nice to have a specific post to point to to clarify that isnt buried in 500 message thread. Modlove

1

nate3 months ago

how are you supposed to prevent people from using an axis sheet

nate3 months ago

is it just "honor system"

1

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

mcsr community… i curse you with with 500 years of calc discourse - some witch 5 years ago

3

Ripside3 months ago

i still think couri is behind all of this and he's buying out rowl xD

Ripside3 months ago

i'm gonna be honest i don't think banning calc is making it more beginner friendly
i don't think removing complexity is necessarily a good thing
like in this case it only seems to lower the skill ceiling rather then the skill floor
like if 2 beginner players play draftout and neither uses calc it will just take longer for both of them to make it to the end
but if a beginner plays againts a pro it doesn't matter if neither of them are using calc the pro player will 99% of times make it to the stronghold faster even if he's not doing trianglulation
you can't remove something like calc and expect new players to have a better chance yo win then those who play more
even if the new player makes it to the end faster he's gonna lose on the other goals
and how are you guys gonna force the no sheet rule? if i open a sheet and use it who's gonna know?
even if you confront me i could easily lie

Rudy3 months ago

why would a beginner play against a pro why are we using this analogy

Rudy3 months ago

'you can't remove something like calc and expect new players to have a better chance yo win then those who play more'

new players arent meant to have a better chance of winning against better players, that isnt the point of this rule

Rudy3 months ago

theres so much more nuance than just beginner friendly/barrier to entry, thats just one of the many arguments

Ripside3 months ago

ok let's say fein againts ferre their both good player but banning calc is just an advantage to fein or to the player who knows triangulation
it's not good to say it's beginner friendly if you have to replace a strat for another

Rudy3 months ago

^

Ripside3 months ago

thats even worse it's saying a new player will never be as good as a pro player

Rudy3 months ago

no its not lol

nsla3 months ago

?

Rudy3 months ago(edited)

theres not two classes of players theres in fact 7 ranks

nsla3 months ago

Nobody said this

Ripside3 months ago

then why would a new player play the game if the know they will never play better?i mean the whole point of this rule is to get more players to play draftout no?

Emily3 months ago

i for won welcome rewarding the player who learns triangulation vs one who can download an external tool

Ripside3 months ago

do you really think it's a beginner friendly change?

Rudy3 months ago

'but if a beginner plays againts a pro it doesn't matter if neither of them are using calc the pro player will 99% of times make it to the stronghold faster even if he's not doing trianglulation'

this is also entirely assuming both players are starting stronghold split at the same time, which is entirely unrealistic in draftout when there are likely 23-24 other goals in the game that are not anything to do with going to the stronghold

Emily3 months ago

you could say that for legit anything tho? why would i get into MCSR if i know i dont have the skill currently to 0 cycle? why would someone get into say valorant or league if they know they wont ever be as good as the top players

Rudy3 months ago

both players will probably be at entirely different coords, entirely different inventories

nsla3 months ago

i dont think it will affect beginner or pro players inequally

nsla3 months ago

for beginners they dont have to set up toolscreen or ninbot so its faster for them to start playing

nsla3 months ago(edited)

for pros they just have to learn how to do mental math (so will the beginners and thats something that a beginner COULD be better at than a pro)

nsla3 months ago

i dont think its that big of a deal

Emily3 months ago

yea to be a pro/top player you just need to learn the mental math just like you need to learn pieray and bastion routes etc.

Emily3 months ago

but if ur not a top player theres a good chance you never even have to go stronghold

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

the mental math to be “good enough” is not even hard

Ripside3 months ago

i don't know i think removing the complexity is not the right move to get players into draftout
my opinion tho

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago(edited)

you can approximate 1000/0.32 as 1000/3/10 = 1000*10/3 = 3333 and remove some extra so 3100 for example

Emily3 months ago

theres maybe 3 or 4 stronghold/end goals, i promise you no ninbrain bot isnt gatekeeping players from draftout

Ripside3 months ago

yeah thats the good part ngl

Ripside3 months ago

i still think it should be a choice tho not forced

Emily3 months ago

(there are 371 goals per draftoutmc.com)

Emily3 months ago

a choice to use ninbrain or not?

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

getting within 100 blocks of stronghold is good enough in 99% of cases

Ripside3 months ago

yeah

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

even feinberg isnt blinding inside it most of the time

Emily3 months ago

that makes no sense

Emily3 months ago

"heres a choice to use this external tool to easyily find SH or u can not use it"

Rudy3 months ago

its a competitive game. providing a choice makes no sense

Ripside3 months ago

it's like the mending experimental update mojang did a few years ago
if i don't wanne use mending then i can just not use it
but if i do wanne use it i should not need to go and breed villagers in a swamp to get it

Rose3 months ago

I was skeptical about banning ninbot but I realized that I used it in like 5% of my games and most of the time I was forcing end goals so I'll use it even less now thag there's less of those

Rudy3 months ago

its not like that

Emily3 months ago

ones a survival optional experimental feature

Emily3 months ago

the other is an INSANE competitive advantage vs someone not using it

Rudy3 months ago

you're playing open beta, theres gonna be changes and 'experimental changes' that are forced on you cause you're playing open beta

Rose3 months ago

Sad about no more toolscreen zoom but I'll get used to it

Rudy3 months ago

it doesnt make sens to be playing a 1v1 competitve game and have opt-in rules and settings

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

we are not seriously considering the idea of “every game starts with a process of deciding to use calc ot not”

Rudy3 months ago

Ripside3 months ago

yeah good point we should expect this

Rudy3 months ago

calc vote!

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

Losing zoom just sucks tho

Rudy3 months ago

i lowkey never used zoom outside of measuring im not sure

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

I guess it’s to make toolscreen as a whole not needed but rebinding f3 is still broken

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

its very useful with birds eye view to check for shipwrecks

Emily3 months ago

i dont even have toolscreen installed

Rudy3 months ago

yeah id think so

Emily3 months ago

but thats cuz im staunchly anti external assistance

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

emily no offense but do you even play draftout

Emily3 months ago

not as much as others but i have a heavy lockout background

Emily3 months ago

ive def taken a backseat to playing myself vs watching and helping out in the disc

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

i dont think using a program to rebind stuff is external assistance tbh

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

you could just use a AHK script

Ripside3 months ago

i'm not saying that
like for example hypixel skyblock you can totally play it vanilla
but you can use mods too
and it's a competitive gamemode and all top players use mods
but a new player can join with vanilla and have the same experience
that kind of choice yk

Emily3 months ago

thats a fine opinion to have

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

guy that has an ahk script for wood tools

Rudy3 months ago

a mmo is a different competitive gamemode than a 1v1 gamemode

Emily3 months ago

skyblock isnt a 1v1 competitive ranked gamemode...

Rudy3 months ago

You can play hypixel skyblock casually

Ripside3 months ago

and my other problme is that how are they gonna force it?

Rudy3 months ago

thats for the devs to know and find out

Rudy3 months ago

but mostly for no calc, the f3+c message will be modified to make it not work

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

1000 years of how they gonna enforce it discourse

Ripside3 months ago

i mean potato wars was...
it CAN be a 1v1 if you want it

nsla3 months ago

u dont need to play draftout to have an opinion on external tools

1

Emily3 months ago

potato wars was an unoffical thing techno and squidkid did

Ripside3 months ago

yeah but axis tho

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

Yea ik it was just in reference to the toolscreen stuff

Rudy3 months ago

Well we also have backseating banned, glitches banned, its all the same, we dont know how its 'enforced' but we can guarantee at a professional level these strats wont be able to be used

Ripside3 months ago

yeah i don't play and only watch but i can have an opinion too it's awsome

nsla3 months ago

yea exactly

Ripside3 months ago

idk i really hope they at least implement them good
so even if i have to learn sheetless axis i know that there is no way my opponant can have an unfair advantage

AuraZz3 months ago

well it's impossible to enforce the rule of not using a sheet or external calc

AuraZz3 months ago

but it's enough hassle to do so that assuming nbb doesn't work with draftout, most people will not bother

AuraZz3 months ago

part of me kinda hopes this rule change is a gateway to banning nbb / macros on src rules but i also know thats never gonna happen

Rudy3 months ago

lol no nbb will never be banned on src

nsla3 months ago

top runners will reject this because it loses them time in speedruns

nsla3 months ago

people want free timesave without improving at the game

Rudy3 months ago

its just too far gone unfortunately

chloe3 months ago(edited)

heres my take

chloe3 months ago

you can watch a 15 minute video and fully understand basic trig for 1.16 with nocalc

chloe3 months ago

but you can watch a 15 minute video with ninbot and eyezoom and still be super confused

chloe3 months ago(edited)

maybe its more beginner friendly to do like. nether coords. cause ninbot just tells you the exact nether coords. but for triangulation in itself with method and math, it is more beginner friendly

chloe3 months ago

when you compare ninbot to the hardest nocalc methods to get the most accuracy, then yeah it seems that ninbot is more beginner friendly. but that precision is just. not required. thats a top level thing. lower level players can do 4 jump fine. with 4 jump you dont have to do any 30fov, you dont need to have 2 decimal precision. you dont need to worry about boat. it gives you a general distance that is all you really need for draftout.

4

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

idk i watched a 5m vidoe and read the nbb doc on how it works

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

and its not hard at all to setup/use/understand

chloe3 months ago

maybe for you

chloe3 months ago

but a lot of people have trouble with ninbot and understanding how to properly use it

chloe3 months ago

it isnt an intutive part of mcsr since its just inputting numbers into a calc. you dont actually get the math. if you input wrong, you get answers that arent correct. while 4 jump is just high school math that most people can understand

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

i dont think people lacking reading comprehension is a solvable issue but idk

Ripside3 months ago

oh hi chloe
btw did you do the 50 in a row bmw oneshot?
i did like 20 in a row and it was 100% consistent

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

i also think this overestimates people lol

chloe3 months ago

not really

chloe3 months ago

i looked at an old 4 jump video

chloe3 months ago

and theres just like. no comments that are confused on how to do the actual method. just clarifications

chloe3 months ago(edited)

people understand 4 jump cause it is intuitive

chloe3 months ago(edited)

goign to 30fov and being hyper specific with an eye is not intuitive

Ripside3 months ago

we really would need some good tutorials after the ban happens

chloe3 months ago

https://youtu.be/8c29j0We2VQ

BoomerPlayz

Minecraft Locating the Stronghold - A Speedrunner's Guide

In this video, I break down the basic process of locating the stronghold after leaving the nether. I do my best to explain triangulation in a simple way and provide a couple ways to practice some of the techniques. In the last few minutes of the video, I review the math used to make the triangulation calculations.

0:00 Intro
0:54 What is Triang...

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

go to 30 fov, look at left pixel of eye center, press f3+c

Ripside3 months ago

i've watched this it's really good

1

chloe3 months ago

that is harder to a broader audience to understand than basic trig

chloe3 months ago

IMO

Feinberg3 months ago

the point is for you it might just make sense but we have years of community data showing that ninbot is very very confusing to the normal player

22

Feinberg3 months ago

like unbelievably confusing

Feinberg3 months ago

you can give it the wrong input and it tells you that you are correct anyways

Feinberg3 months ago

and then people will miss

chloe3 months ago

yep ^^

Feinberg3 months ago

and then just say omg my calc is broken

pinkpuff3 months ago

Very confusing even to speedrunners, imagine the people coming to draftout who've never speedrun before! Theres already lots of those !

11

Feinberg3 months ago

and then its a wild chase of trying to figure out what exactly they did wrong

Feinberg3 months ago

was it a calc setting or a game setting or a macro or a lineup or desync

Rudy3 months ago

and then they dont know they need to change nbb to latest version and set up god sens and all that bullshit

1

Ripside3 months ago

fein but how are the gonna enforce it?the sheet for axis mostly

Feinberg3 months ago

they cant but who cares

Apparently A Chicken3 months ago

I have gotten a lot of notifications from the mcsr ranked Reddit about having a hard time trying to get nnb to work

1

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

tbh this is a p bad argument, theres so much cheating stuff that is hard to enforce

Feinberg3 months ago

they cant enforce no xray and no ones xraying in the top 100 currently i bet

4

Feinberg3 months ago

they cant enforce like anything

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

fwiw i think nbb being banned is fine i just think sheet should be allowed

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

but its a fine line so i get why its weird

n4palm 🪽3 months ago(edited)

(no reason you cant implement boateye in a google sheet for example if someone pastes in the f3+c output)

chloe3 months ago

this is the argument used to allow calc

chloe3 months ago

not gonna work for draftout i think thats clear

1

Rudy3 months ago

someone that is gonna cheat is just gonna cheat anyway lol luckily when that cheater gets faced with tournaments and play at a top 100 level it starts to fall apart

Ripside3 months ago

ngl if i wanne get into draftout i'd like to know to some levels that me and my opponent are having a fair 1v1
if they have an advantage it's not fair for me a new player

chloe3 months ago(edited)

i think ive already stated my opinions on sheet being ban, but to restate, i can think of 3 differnet trig things that are differing predetermined math and its just impossible to make a guideline that can be interpreted where a line is so its just better to ban it when there isnt really any vanilla reason to have a type of sheet like that

Rudy3 months ago

but you're just assuming that the opponent is cheating for no reason

Ripside3 months ago

yeah but my point is that you can cheat in the first place
if you wanne ban something at least have some system to flag cheaters

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

i mean then dont play any multiplayer game ever unless its on lan

3

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

generally coping your opponent is cheating is just a bad idea and you should just play to improve

1

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

the only cheat you should really be concerned about is xraying since that is a big advantage

Ripside3 months ago

cheating is a problme i know but i want at least some level of confidence that the match i'm playing is fair

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

(naturally all my opponents xray to find a huge cave instantly and i have no blame)

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

what confidence do you have that someone in ur ranked game isnt using xray to find the bastion or fort

Rudy3 months ago

and the devs will work towards that probably, allowing/disalowing nbb has little to do with this

chloe3 months ago

maybe in the future there can be a fairplay-esc mod for draftout. otherwise idk

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

like its a pretty dumb argument, and its super unrelated to nbb/sheets

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

the only cheats i would be concerned about people abusing is xray and autoclicker/rebind to keyboard

Ripside3 months ago

dude i'm not saying that for coping
cs2 anticheat sucks but knowing there's at least some level of anticheat to prevent at the least weaker hacks it gives you confidence

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

cuz stuff like break tool is very easy to cheat on and never lose again

Ripside3 months ago

hopefully

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

but also even fairplay (any anticheat rly) cant be perfect

chloe3 months ago

yeah but some is better than none

2

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago(edited)

but i generally just dont go for break tool cuz somehow everyone is super tas on it

Ripside3 months ago

yeah but not having one in place is worse

pinkpuff3 months ago

Pretty sure devs are implementing anti xray measure the way ranked has so shouldnt be an issue forever anyway

1

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

how does the ranked anti xray even work i wonder

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

i guess you can make block clipping only work in spectator somehow

Ripside3 months ago

boat crowl and compost gravel glitch are patched that way

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

i mean the game does have some system to make xray not happen since when ur suffocating u dont xray

Apparently A Chicken3 months ago

Xray is kinda useless in mcsr ranked

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

idk why it happens when u do boat stuff

Rudy3 months ago

i mean not really useless

Ripside3 months ago

like even that is not perfect but it's at least reassuring for me as a new player

Rudy3 months ago(edited)

its more pivotal in like draftout i wouldnt call it useless in ranked though especially for like stronghold nav

Rudy3 months ago

and finding spawning in a buried fort

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

anticheat programs are useless if you are not a very experienced developer

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

its magnitudes harder to prevent cheating than to cheat

Rudy3 months ago

mhm draftout is a small team an anticheat is insanely hard to manage lol

voℓóp¡tǒu3 months ago(edited)

did they provide any reasons behind why they're banning nbb cuz in the announcement basically nothing is said

Rudy3 months ago

https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1509101969342468146

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

also writing an anticheat for minecraft is extra hard because its in Java

Rudy3 months ago

theres months of discussion on why nbb is getting banned and its kinda hard to provide full context in 1 message

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

which is very easy to decompile + the games run locally

Rudy3 months ago

but i presume in the update log today they will explain reasoning a bit further

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

if you want to prevent all cheaating you essentially need a server to constantly verify the game state

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

this can be done by like minecraft servers sorta but draftout is intentionally played client side

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

like u can probably prevent people from cheating by not reading the rules and rebinding break block to a keyboard key or people xraying because they dont know its not allowed

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

also even then you can do clientside stuff

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

ya its just harder

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

like in competitive multiplayer games cheats are usually not "give myself infnite HP" because the server prevents that

1

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

like ive played against cheaters in immo valorant and riot has like 1000000x the resources to make an anticheat than the entire mc scene combined probably

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

its more stuff like aimbots wallhacks etc which the server cant detect because its not in the games memory

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

but yeah for draftout the "anticheat" is fine being just preventing adding non allowed mods and patching xray/detecting autoclicker somehow

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

isnt your name mentioned in the rules in mongeys chat

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

i dont think ive ever written in mongeys chat

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

oh lmfao

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago(edited)

hmm maybe i am mistaken

pinkpuff3 months ago

Are you just thinking of the literal explosive called napalm

pinkpuff3 months ago

Wouldnt surprise me if thats in the rules

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

no i thought there was some name in there that reminded me of "obamaskitten2"

pinkpuff3 months ago

oh lol

pinkpuff3 months ago

obamagaming i think

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

ah yeah thats it lmao

nsla3 months ago

good for u but the world doesnt revolve around u

nsla3 months ago

super late but i lowkey hated that message

n4palm 🪽3 months ago(edited)

i didnt realize that msg was extreme enough to warrant "hate"

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

but go off

n4palm 🪽3 months ago(edited)

id argue it shouldnt revolve around people with below an 8th grade reading comprehension shrug

nsla3 months ago

like exactly

nsla3 months ago

i was just about to say that one message wasnt extreme it was the similar message that u just sent that followed up the one im talking about

nsla3 months ago

like

nsla3 months ago

not everyone is born/built the same man some concepts take longer for people to understand

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

DISCORD DRAMA!!!!

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

sorry i just like saying that

nsla3 months ago

dont fucking beat down other people because u can understand shit faster than other people

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

if i cant understand premptive should we ban it?

jes3 months ago

ok

jes3 months ago

this is off topic

nsla3 months ago

whataboutism

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

i think a lot of people wont understand how to do 4 jump either

jes3 months ago

and we don't need to be taking digs at each other for no reason

jes3 months ago

ty

jes3 months ago

that's not productive to why ninbot should or shouldn't be banned

n4palm 🪽3 months ago(edited)

some people take this game way too seriously lol

jes3 months ago

brother

nsla3 months ago

im not even talking about the game im talking about how u think about other people

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

my initial message was my experience with it and not an indictment of anyone else

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

multiple things can be true at once... a lot of people do literally refuse to read or pay attention, many streamers download ninjabrain skim through a 2 minute youtube video then complain about how the tool is "broken" or "doesnt work"

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

this msg is mostly tongue in cheek since i found your message to be pretty unproductive

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

like this is so unneccesary lmfao

jes3 months ago

and we can say this without bringing up reading comprehension or saying "good for you" and other aggressive stuff

chloe3 months ago

8th grade reading material

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

well yeah theres no need to be an asshole

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

you dont need to understand how it works to use it?

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

this is a bad strawman ...

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

but also this is trig

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

the paper is not relevant at all to understanding nbb

jes3 months ago

have you seen how many people make strawman's arguments in this thread alone

1

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

which you previously said was simple (and tbh id agree, but im a stem major so my perspective is probably biased)

chloe3 months ago

idk what a strawman is

chloe3 months ago

sorry

Emily3 months ago

hey so im sure we can all knock it off right?

Emily3 months ago

like be mature

chloe3 months ago

Hey sure

nsla3 months ago

its relevant to what n4palm initally said

jes3 months ago

lol

nsla3 months ago

this is where the whole 8th grade thing comes from

jes3 months ago

ANYWAYS

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

thats not just trig though...

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

yeah true understanding the doc is in fact pretty difficult

Emily3 months ago

this applies to nsla too, we can all be mature

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

i can clarify that msg

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

and yes different things are difficult for different people, no need to act superior over it

jes3 months ago

you're good tbh it doesn't nullify your argument entirely btw, but this whole conversation should not be happening rn but here teaching moment:

A straw man fallacy is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

Person 1 asserts proposition X.
Person 2 argues against a superficially similar proposition Y, as though an argument against Y were an argument against X.
This reasoning is a fallacy of relevance: it fails to address the proposition in question by misrepresenting the opposing position.

1

jes3 months ago

people have a bad habit of doing this just in general

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

1) i found the nbb doc easy to understand, but im also a stem major so its probably easier.
2) understand in that 2nd msg of mine meant understand how to use it

jes3 months ago

it doesn't make u a bad person or etc

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

NBB involves advanced probability, trig, calculus, and datamining of minecraft code

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

yeah but you dont need to know how that works

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

like you need to know how to change ur fov and press f3+c?

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

if you mean how it works on a basic level on how it finds the stronghold sure

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

yeah

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

my statement b4 was a bit unclear

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

i read the nbb doc because i was curious about it

nsla3 months ago

i mean its more complicated than that depending on what measuring strat u use you have to go through even more tinkering to get it working and even then it takes much more precision than not using any strats

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

it takes more precision but its also much much more accurate

nsla3 months ago

i think people 4 sprint jumping and using the most basic eye measuring with ninbot get the same use/result

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

even with godsens, toolkit has removed the biggest barrier to entry

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

there is no way the average person is going to be able to hit sh or even get close doing that

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

if they were people wouldnt have used nbb before boateye

nsla3 months ago

the avg player probably has to throw like 4 eyes to get 100% on their bot

chloe3 months ago

I agree with this to an extent, i think ninbot will help those players to guess how much to go in the nether though

nsla3 months ago

unless if they Actually spend time figuring out how to be more accurate

nsla3 months ago

actually true that is a big help

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

from my experience the average iron player in ranked throws like 2-3

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago(edited)

basically a strawman is when u construct a position nobody actually has and acts like thats whats being argued about. For example if someone says "we should remove end goals" a strawman argument might be "oh so we should remove all goals you dont like doing"

jes3 months ago

which happens SOOOOO much

chloe3 months ago

yeah fair

jes3 months ago

in this thread

jes3 months ago

idk how

chloe3 months ago

i brought up the doc cause the doc was mentioned b4

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

yeah ur good dw

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

i think my initial msg was unclear which was mb

jes3 months ago

i kind of agree with the sentiment that you don't need to read the doc to know how to use ninbot

jes3 months ago

i think you should know pythagorean theorem but like

chloe3 months ago

yeah i agree

chloe3 months ago

i dont think reading this is neccesary at all

chloe3 months ago

my point was more-so that the math behind ninbot is not something of an 8th grade reading level and is vastly more complicated

jes3 months ago

in the west (specifically usa sorry), you don't learn trig until junior/senior year of hs (11th/12th grade)

jes3 months ago

and minecraft generally has a younger audience under the age of 16-17

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

the 8th grade comment was more directed towards people who dont read the readme or skim through videos and then complain about nbbb not working

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

i learned it in 8th grade in murica

AuraZz3 months ago

chloe can I ask how you're still able to have the nbb debate after being in this community for so long

i'm tired of it after only seeing it happen like twice

chloe3 months ago

yeah its also like even this wasnt a thing. a lot of people getting into mcsr are between the ages of 13 and 16

jes3 months ago(edited)

math is a useful and great skill to have and we should be encouraging that but it shouldn't be about if someone can comprehend it at their level

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

i mean i really really dont think setting up nbb is hard

chloe3 months ago(edited)

my first sub 20 was with axis calculated where i hit a cave next to the iron bar room in sh and backnavved to pr and you can not have that level of excitement in a run with calc so im very biased against calc and it gives energy to fight against it when relevant

2

chloe3 months ago

also external tools r lame

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

like if you show someone eyezoom and subpixel a coal 1 player can measure in 2 eyes

chloe3 months ago

not really

chloe3 months ago

like

jes3 months ago

when i said this yesterday the argument that was presented to me was that it's hard to get "pixel perfect" on the eye, you need macros to resize to do that

jes3 months ago

which idk

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

it is physically impossible to mismeasure if you have eye zoom and subpixel tho

jes3 months ago

that's not really just ninbot anymore

jes3 months ago

it's other things too

chloe3 months ago

this is incorrect

AuraZz3 months ago

i think you're not approaching it from the mindset of a new player where things like boat desync, finding the pixel etc aren't just second-nature

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

i mean i learned boateye in my first month of speedrunning

jes3 months ago

i like this story

jes3 months ago

tha nk you

jes3 months ago

made me happy

chloe3 months ago

np

chloe3 months ago

it was like 2021 so like

chloe3 months ago

no recording

Emily3 months ago

approach it from the average person, rather than your own personal experience

Emily3 months ago

the average person can and will struggle on boateye especially if new to the gamemode

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

lowk at some point i kinda wish we could just ban calculator discourse from this server lmao

Emily3 months ago

ppl quit speedrunning because they cant get ninbot working

Emily3 months ago

itll never happen, calc discourse will exist till the heatdeath of the universe

1

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

i think theres an argument to be made that you can make setting it up easier

chloe3 months ago

yeah like even with the tutorials and stuff i have a friend who has had issues that ive just neevr seen before

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

but i dont think that is a flaw of calcs as a concept

chloe3 months ago

and i had to like dedicate help to her for a while to get it

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

i mean the boateye thing is hard in general cuz of the weird sens stuff u have to set up right

chloe3 months ago(edited)

i can speak from seeing other people that external tool setup is not intuitive

jes3 months ago

agre

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

imo toolscreen makes it easy since you dont need to change windows settings at all. you just paste the sens into mc config and set ur toolscreen sens

nsla3 months ago

i remember struggling really hard with boat eye for months i dont rememebr what the issue was

nsla3 months ago

this was in like 2024

chloe3 months ago

yeah

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

i think the soln to these things is just better tooling

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

not banning calcs

nsla3 months ago

i prefer no tools

1

nsla3 months ago

including calc

chloe3 months ago

yeah

chloe3 months ago

i agree

maskers3 months ago

"just"

maskers3 months ago

it's already way more accessible than it used to be a few years ago

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

i agree

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

again i (from purely personal experience and like 1 friend who is into mcsr) didnt find it to be hard

chloe3 months ago

i have a hot take about calc which is that it could require 2 f3c inputs to give a result

chloe3 months ago

1 eye is stupid

chloe3 months ago

#hot take

AuraZz3 months ago

thats like such a weird middle ground

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

it's just stupid that you "need" to download multiple external tools to play a fun little game like draftout

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

but clearly other people do, so as a community we can go fix their problems to make it more accesible instead of handicapping everyone

nsla3 months ago

1 eye is stupid to automate i think but isnt it actually possible to get sh location from one eye without nbb

nsla3 months ago

like doing the calculation urself

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

like for speedrunning its about using everything you can to push for better times

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

you dont need to use nbb even when it was allowed

nsla3 months ago

well ig if you just follow its calculations

chloe3 months ago

you're right but that calcuilation goes from basic trig to The doc

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

so it makes sense it was allowed originally

nsla3 months ago

yea

chloe3 months ago(edited)

And 1 eye also factors in stuff such as Biome Snapping (or to a heavier degree afaik)

AuraZz3 months ago

ye theoretically but the math is far too complicated to do by hand during a run

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

and speedrunners love spending time on stuff to get small advantages

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

but for osmething meant to have mass appeal like draftout its just dumb

nsla3 months ago

nah watch me

1

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

of course its possible its just math

maskers3 months ago

if anyone calculates the exact same ninjabrainbot % it gives you manually in under a month i will be impressed

maskers3 months ago

or in any time really

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

draftout is also about speed tbf

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

really? i think like a uni prof could get it done in 2 days

chezbgone3 months ago

what if the stronghold coords get printed in chat when you throw an eye

chezbgone3 months ago

problem solved

AuraZz3 months ago

throwing an eye teleports you to starter staircase solves all the problems

chloe3 months ago(edited)

anyways that hot take is def not draftout but more so mcsr and i doubt the community would Like that if it was a change implemented

chloe3 months ago

But if it was 2021...

chloe3 months ago

inventing a time machine...

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

in early 2021 people didnt use f3 lol

Rudy3 months ago

they were definitely using f3 in 2021

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

illuimina got the wr without it

jes3 months ago

..

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

in early 2021

jes3 months ago

your point of reference is

chloe3 months ago

?

Rudy3 months ago

thats why that wr was notable at the time, that guy was the only guy NOT using f3 at a top level

Rudy3 months ago

and yeah...

jes3 months ago

the evil and horrible and terrible guy that did

jes3 months ago

horrible and evil and terrible stuff?

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

my point is that the game was very very different

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

so talking about 2021 is kinda dumb

chloe3 months ago

well thats not rly relevant here but yeah it is a silly point of reference

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

how did it taake people so long to figure out eraying for bastions lmao

Rudy3 months ago

yeah no one disagrees with that aga

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

or even using bastions in general....

Rudy3 months ago

k4 my goat

jes3 months ago

well when i hear the name it's the first thing i think of sorry

1

jes3 months ago

it doesn't make it less credible sure but i just don't like him

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

like in 2021 you could argue that plently of stuff we do now shouldnt be allowed

jes3 months ago

omg

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

i mean yeah hes a horrible person

chloe3 months ago(edited)

in 2021 you could argue that things not allowed now should stay allowed

Emily3 months ago

so like whats the point of this convo atm we're very off topic from any rule ban rn

jes3 months ago

we were just talking about strawman arguments earlier Don't say this it doesn't add anything to the conversation

chloe3 months ago

wahts ur point

chloe3 months ago

ur right

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

i was responding to this

Emily3 months ago

Draftout isnt mcsr ranked, therefore our rules can and will deviate from them

1

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

but yeah its offtopic

Emily3 months ago

im down for civil rule talks just keep it within the scope of draftout and our rulings

jes3 months ago

i like this statement

jes3 months ago

thanks Uniquepotatoes

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

i just think its dumb to ban tech because some people cant set it up (and its not like they physically cant, its that they dont/cant invest however much time it takes to learn)

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

youre welcome jes

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

ALSO nbb doesnt affect draftout that much

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

like i think until you get to the top level you can do fine without it

Threadfinn3 months ago

I feel like a lot of the people who dislike calc removal have never played any game except MCSR Ranked, and don't realize a game doesn't usually require a 20+ minute tutorial just to INSTALL the game.

Rudy3 months ago

i used nbb for saving home portal coords more than i ever measured an eye for draftout

1

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

that's not the only reason nbb was banned though ?

n4palm 🪽3 months ago(edited)

mcsr is probably one of the easiest games to start speedrunning

jes3 months ago

uh

chloe3 months ago

yeah and you can just f3c and look at your clipboard for this (meta)

jes3 months ago

ok

jes3 months ago

good edit

jes3 months ago

i guess

Rudy3 months ago

thats still a bold take

chloe3 months ago

???

jes3 months ago

yeah

Emily3 months ago

its not banned just because some people cant set it up, its also moreso to reward good human skills vs using as many external tools as allowed, draftout as a game is something meant to show off single person skills/decision making

Rudy3 months ago

i entirely disagree with it

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

idk maybe my perspective is biased

jes3 months ago

saying that about any speedrunning community is kind of loaded

chloe3 months ago

extremely

jes3 months ago

it is not easy to speedrun

Rudy3 months ago

there are many games that are so much harder to start, but mcsr is by far not nearly the easiest

1

jes3 months ago

that's why people do it

chloe3 months ago

like when i did some deltarune speedrunning it was

chloe3 months ago

look at a video on how to do some encounter skips

chloe3 months ago

and then do the game

chloe3 months ago

it wasnt like

chloe3 months ago

leran bastions

chloe3 months ago

learn eye

chloe3 months ago

learn sh

chloe3 months ago

learn end ifhgt

chloe3 months ago

do one yccle

chloe3 months ago

then dont die!

Rudy3 months ago

jes3 months ago

it's true

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

idk maybe its because i played mc a lot before speedrunning

chloe3 months ago

yeah

Rudy3 months ago

yeah definitely

chloe3 months ago

100%

chloe3 months ago

you are speaking from a super super super biased perspective

jes3 months ago

someone get into okami speedrunning and come back to me in 4 years when you still can't get sub 1h30min

1

chloe3 months ago

SUPER

jes3 months ago

tough crowd

chloe3 months ago

I gave my sob emote

Rudy3 months ago

i never finished okami

jes3 months ago

sorry no i mean like no messages in 3 minutes

jes3 months ago

is it over

chloe3 months ago

ANYWAYS

chloe3 months ago

idk

chloe3 months ago

UUH

jes3 months ago

omg

jes3 months ago

plz

chloe3 months ago

I LIKE THISU RULE CHANGE

jes3 months ago

let me watch you

jes3 months ago

play it

jes3 months ago

i WON'T backseat you

jes3 months ago

i just like watching people play it

Rudy3 months ago

perhaps at some point....

jes3 months ago

sorry iv'e derailed entirely

jes3 months ago

me 2

jes3 months ago

hey and i mean like

jes3 months ago

i don't think it's getting undone so

jes3 months ago

maybe it is over..

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

idk i think it just doesnt affect 90% of players so its unnecessary (and at the top level its fine to expect ppl to know how to set it up imo)

jes3 months ago

i think draftout doesn't require third party calculation the way speedrunning does

jes3 months ago

which is what at least 5 other people have said

jes3 months ago

but like

Rudy3 months ago(edited)

its very symbolic for future rulings, stuff like not allowing the tulip f3+c calc, or an AATOOL-like that reads your draftout board and displays what you need

1

jes3 months ago(edited)

bingo sure has a lot of overlap with speedrunning as someone who has played (and won) several bingo tournaments on a minimized scale (admittedly)

jes3 months ago

but i don't need ninbot

jes3 months ago

to win

jes3 months ago

very rarely do we encounter endgame goals

jes3 months ago

and it's honestly pretty arbitrary to include endgame goals when there is so much to do in every other part of the game but i still support including them I'm just saying like

jes3 months ago

u can do 4 things in the end

jes3 months ago

kill dragon get elytra eat chorus fruit

jes3 months ago

die to void

jes3 months ago

and maybe like more stuff like respawn the dragon

jes3 months ago

BUT most games in higher level play are sub 30min

n4palm 🪽3 months ago

im not familiar with the tulip thing, but i think the aatool thing is meaningfully different (also slippery slope fallacy)

jes3 months ago

the rest of the game is just so much more interesting

jes3 months ago(edited)

the tulip calc is finding tulips in forests/plains outside of flower forests

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

i dont think you know what marginalized means

jes3 months ago

oh sorry i meant an entirely different word

Threadfinn3 months ago

I don't think it's a fallacy in this case when you have the evidence of looking at mcsr rule changes

jes3 months ago

also i was going to make a thread but can someone explain why remove observer

jes3 months ago(edited)

can we talk about objective changes in here or no

Threadfinn3 months ago

Yes we can

jes3 months ago

is it because the rest of the redstone goals overlap with ancient city (except crafter)

Threadfinn3 months ago

I think it's just there's enough redstone goals, it isn't really different enough from others like comparator

Emily3 months ago

ill double check but im sure its fine if u keep it civil

jes3 months ago(edited)

uh i just personally think it wasn't a necessary removal especially if new goals keep being added

jes3 months ago

7 goals were added over the 3 removals that happened which is a netpos

jes3 months ago

and none of the goals added were related to redstone

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

they wanted to rebalance the amount of nether goals i would guess

jes3 months ago

hmm

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

obtain observer is the same goal as obtain comparator

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

with the only difference being one needing to smelt 3 things

jes3 months ago

wait the y reduced stack of a`rrows too lmao

jes3 months ago

random tung

jes3 months ago

yeah

jes3 months ago

sure igwym

Emily3 months ago

i believe this lets you use bastion as a very easy alternative to village trade

Emily3 months ago

way easier to pull 32 arrows or spec arrows rather than 64 of one or the other from bastion

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

it is also meant to make crafting them feasible even if no one is doing that

Threadfinn3 months ago

Maybe if you get some flint and enter RP, craft then double with glowstone

Emily3 months ago

that too

Emily3 months ago

32 instead of 64 opens a wide avenue of ways to do the goal now which i love

jes3 months ago

yeah ur right

Emily3 months ago

and yea as mentioned i believe observer removal was cuz its basically comparator, its like the same task almost

Emily3 months ago

soul campfire removal i believe is to cut down on the insta nether slop cuz at top level it can get rly rough

Emily3 months ago

update: we shouldnt do task removal convos here, unless its closely related to rules, so its own suggestion thead or just gen chat talking is better

1

Emily3 months ago

apologies for the mis info xd

jes3 months ago

is ok thanks for letting me know

jes3 months ago

i thought that wold be the case

Emily3 months ago

yea nws!

galoomba3 months ago

it would break the symmmetry no? you'd have 180° worth of different numbers instead of 45°

1

AuraZz3 months ago

yea

r0hkxOP3 months ago(edited)

idt 45 works anyways

r0hkxOP3 months ago

or like its not symmetrical on 45 at 0 0

maskers3 months ago

8 8 would work right

maskers3 months ago(edited)

wait eyes point to 0 0, it should work on latest versions?

AuraZz3 months ago

8 8 would also work yeah

r0hkxOP3 months ago

it isn't symmetrical on 45 degrees no matter where you are in the chunk is what i mean

r0hkxOP3 months ago

at least i think i remember sharpie saying that like a couple years ago

r0hkxOP3 months ago

AuraZz3 months ago

i don't understand what you mean

r0hkxOP3 months ago

see the screenshot i just sent

r0hkxOP3 months ago

that is my only info on this

AuraZz3 months ago

ye idk what sharpie means either

AuraZz3 months ago

pixel perfect shouldn't affect the symmetry, only the sensitivity matters and with 0.02291165 it is accurate enough that 0-45 should almost certainly work

AuraZz3 months ago(edited)

for reference, the angle closest to 45 with that god sens

AuraZz3 months ago

i haven't tested 0-45 too rigorously yet though so i might be wrong

Threadfinn3 months ago

Does f11 not work properly on Linux or macos? I'm just wondering if there's a reason to allow resize macros at all instead of just having people use the in game resize hotkey.

maskers3 months ago

convenience

Threadfinn3 months ago

It's seems like some people (current #4 ranked player) are confused about the rules. It kinda just makes sense to not allow any resizes if some are going to be banned.

Threadfinn3 months ago

At least not allow any with external tools.

maskers3 months ago

im surprised i haven't seen anyone set up an e counter mirror with toolscreen yet, though im also not watching much

maskers3 months ago

but this would be way more annoying without toolscreen

maskers3 months ago

resize macros also don't require you to be playing in fullscreen

Threadfinn3 months ago

I thought f11 still worked to switch between windowed and windowed full screen?

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

mongey got hit with a warning for zooming huh

~justin3 months ago(edited)

to me the most compelling reason why resize macros are allowed is it is not consistent across operating systems the 'level' that arbitrary window resizing is at, and in some cases it can be considered operation system functionality. I use a tiling window manager where I can set up an effective 'thin' and 'wide' by boxing in my instance with two windows on the side and using rearrange hotkeys, should that be banned? there is functionality in the windows desktop window manager with win+arrow or snapping in corners, should that be banned? fanzyzones is a first party app for windows that allows more advanced snapping, should that be banned? are you allowed to do any resizing if you write your own wm? what is the difference between these and ahk making a move window dll call? is it fair to force people to use linux to get features, and to allow certain linux features even on linux when it's so user-definable? I think there are significant practical issues to overcome in trying to ban resizing in a pc game other than say 'you can never change your resolution' which is not what people are advocating for

11

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

Uh by that same logic shouldnt zoom macro be allowed?

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

Or how is that different

~justin3 months ago(edited)

oob resizing is a line that is almost never crossed in typical use, so it's not so difficult to define and distinguish

~justin3 months ago(edited)

there are issues even there with virtual monitors, but thankfully that's obscure enough that nobody brought it up

chloe3 months ago(edited)

if i bought 16 monitors and stacked them on each other i could have 16k res so ermm it should be allowed because this is practical and im doing this errrm

~justin3 months ago(edited)

not the 16k monitor setup

~justin3 months ago

someone's gotta do it at some point

~justin3 months ago

all you need is 4 dci 4k monitors sideways

~justin3 months ago

idk what gpu can drive that though, not my 1660 ti

~justin3 months ago

actually maybe it can

chloe3 months ago

i got a 1660super

chloe3 months ago

so uuh.

chloe3 months ago

~justin3 months ago

ok this would be more expensive than I thought b/c the only dci 4k monitors are for like color grading and the used market is not robust

1

chloe3 months ago

gg

jes3 months ago

wait so, you can resize if you have multiple monitors?

jes3 months ago

sorry i'm new 2 this

jes3 months ago

well i have never used resizing it's not that i'm new idk

SOOT3 months ago

shouldnt all this calcless boateye talk move to #strat-dev ?

SOOT3 months ago

thats why it was created

Lila3 months ago

i can effectively do this with just niri default keybinds and settings, i could also adjust things to be easier keybinds and specific resolutions if i wanted, also i think windows has some similar shortcuts, should we ban using your wm to manipulate your window? i think that's stupid

r0hkxOP3 months ago

shoutout niri

chloe3 months ago

what the niri

Lila3 months ago

i actually hopped on niri because of you lol

r0hkxOP3 months ago

pog

r0hkxOP3 months ago

its so good

Lila3 months ago

nsla3 months ago

it wasnt made specifically for that

nsla3 months ago

also theres already sheetless axis so not much more development has to be done

SOOT3 months ago

Strat dev wasn’t made for the development of new Strats?

nsla3 months ago

what

Fox4 🦊3 months ago

It was made for development of new strats, but there was no specific tech in mind

SOOT3 months ago

when I said thats what it was made for I was talking about working on strats

SOOT3 months ago

not calcless boat eye specifically

Threadfinn3 months ago

Is this allowed https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1519225449971191828/1524598433418055913

jes3 months ago

Forwarded

the screenshot above you shows it literally linking to the ruleset

jes3 months ago

@noura 🜛 that is why i specifically said cite

jes3 months ago

sorry to ping but i'm not trying to arguebut like

jes3 months ago(edited)

in the ruleset only some rules are explicitly cited and in the third party resources and mods sections there are no citations about resource packs that modify the gui and no other block or entity textures

jes3 months ago

i'm not trying to be dense or anything

noura 🜛3 months ago

ur good

jes3 months ago

and by citations i mean this just so we're on the same ,page

jes3 months ago

i know at the top there's like a disclaimer linking to the speedrun rules but idk LMAO

noura 🜛3 months ago

well yeah like rule modifications are gonna need to reference the initial rule

noura 🜛3 months ago(edited)

rules that are still valid have no need to be modified/mentioned outside of the rsg section of the doc

jes3 months ago

mmm i get what u mean

Threadfinn3 months ago

bumping this, it's so small and hard to see even if you already know it's there

Area3 months ago

Idk if this has been told earlier but can we not enforce a rule for players to keep the replay mod (or other) files for your games for atleast a fixed amount of time like a week
So that whenever someone opens a ticket against them, they can show their gameplay to the mods

Area3 months ago(edited)

For eg if the opponent thinks you mightve used ninbrainbot or are suspicious, you could show them
This might reduce the number of rule breakers, but also increase the load on mods

Uniquepotatoes3 months ago

replays take a lot of space

Fulham3 months ago

guys what if we bring back calculators...

Emily3 months ago

@nsla handle him.

Fulham3 months ago

it's legit Day 2 of being nice to nsla

Fulham3 months ago

Forwarded

Day 1 of being nice to nsla

Fulham3 months ago

i've legit been sooooo chill

nsla3 months ago

https://tenor.com/view/the-deep-boys-chewing-gif-14784112

The Deep GIF - The Deep Boys - Discover & Share GIFs

Emily3 months ago

Ahh sorry I didnt realize I was interrupting the being nice to nsla streak

Emily3 months ago

Carry on

Fulham3 months ago

nsla when i meet you i will buy you a beer what do you say

Fulham3 months ago

agababaholics

nsla3 months ago

Okay!

yahiamice.3 months ago

ok so

yahiamice.3 months ago

with the no-ninbrain rule in practice the options are:
• memorize axis sheet's numbers by heart so you don't have to rely on an external sheet
• learn sheetless but then you're doing herculean mental math mid run with hella decimals to get an ounce of precision
• 4 jump estimation and risk losing 3 eyes to breaks trying to triangulate by hand

yahiamice.3 months ago

unless if mods prohibited learning the sheet too

chloe3 months ago

sheetless is not as hard as you probably think

yahiamice.3 months ago

im watching the feinberg tutorial i'm Terrified by all the multiplications in play

yahiamice.3 months ago

i haven't used that part of my brain for times tables since i was 11

chloe3 months ago

Haha

chloe3 months ago

it just takes a lil practice

chloe3 months ago

But 4 jump is also just fine

noura 🜛3 months ago(edited)

the mental math is hard but the numbers aren't that bad, you don't need many decimals of precision

1

chloe3 months ago

Like 2 eyes there gives you a rough estimate and you can generally get it in 2-3 eyes after going that distance

DriftSythe3 months ago

best option is to just throw eyes until it goes down IMO

noura 🜛3 months ago

i don't think so, since memorization can be a skill, but doing it for the sheet is kinda impossible without a lot of gameplay tbh

noura 🜛3 months ago

like couriway level

DriftSythe3 months ago

memorizing the sheet is probably not a great use of your time

yahiamice.3 months ago

yeah it prolly ain't

yahiamice.3 months ago

Im gonna teach my parrot to recite the whole sheet instead

noura 🜛3 months ago

your parrot when it sees the deal 400 damage goal

yahiamice.3 months ago

https://tenor.com/view/green-car-car-wash-scared-cat-green-cat-gif-440422239305849243

Green Car Car Wash GIF - Green car Car wash Scared cat - Discover & Share GIFs

nsla3 months ago

also remember eyes point to 0 0 and when ur at the intersection of 4 chunks and it goes down the correct chunk is the pos pos chunk

1

galoomba3 months ago

it's one division, one multiplication, and two additions

yahiamice.3 months ago

Too much work

Threadfinn3 months ago

Why do people keep bringing up memorizing the sheet while saying sheetless is too hard? If the little math in sheetless is too hard for you, why are you even mentioning memorization as if it's an option?

Threadfinn3 months ago

Just get 7 rods and you can throw like 8 eyes and still be fine 90% of the time, and even without math if you understand stronghold rings you shouldn't need more than 4 eye throws ever.

DriftSythe3 months ago

yea like I don't get it

it's like saying ohh addition is too hard but there is that other option of doing a triple integral to get the same result

2

nsla3 months ago

you know back in my day in 1.7 you threw eyes and drew lines

2

r0hkxOP3 months ago

x marks the spot

SOOT3 months ago

Who’s gonna tell the “I need ninjabrain” people that even if you refuse to do math you can just follow the eye

yahiamice.3 months ago

NEVER AGAIN

yahiamice.3 months ago

i got rolled by the bastion trades and left with 2 eyes. They both broke

yahiamice.3 months ago

Had to go back and trade backups for 2 more

yahiamice.3 months ago(edited)

and my estimate blind caved me and had me dig up to a GROVE AT Y 117

yahiamice.3 months ago

we take ninjabrain bot for granted...

nsla2 months ago

?

yahiamice.2 months ago

Yes

yahiamice.2 months ago

Traded the entirety of housing

nsla2 months ago

Did we trade one gold block whats going on

yahiamice.2 months ago

Got 3 pearls

nsla2 months ago

did you get the 4 extra backup blocks

yahiamice.2 months ago

Yeah

nsla2 months ago

not the topdown ones

yahiamice.2 months ago

Pace required me to leave ASAP to secure the win so i didn't get the turbo backups

nsla2 months ago

something isnt adding up here

nsla2 months ago

actually its 16 gold blocks

yahiamice.2 months ago

awesome

nsla2 months ago

isnt housing like 13-14

nsla2 months ago

im booting up to check that

nsla2 months ago

Legit thats kinda silly that u can get rolled on in housing

yahiamice.2 months ago

yeah no i got turbo rolled, when i traded stray gold w/ pigs outside the bastion i got a pearl drop immediately i feel like i got the short end of the stick

7rowl2 months ago

housing is 17 guaranteed

nsla2 months ago

yea i just checked

7rowl2 months ago

3 middown, 9 regular, 4 backup backup, 1 forsen block

1

nsla2 months ago

I take everything back. you probably missed a trade somewhere

yahiamice.2 months ago

Could be yeah

Uniquepotatoes2 months ago

forsen block

Threadfinn2 months ago

https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1528484725256360138 This discussion made me want clarification, does "Unless otherwise stated, players should assume that Lobbies follow the standard ruleset, but Lobby hosts are free to use or enforce any gameplay rules they wish." mean lobby hosts can choose to remove or add rules?

r0hkxOP2 months ago

if the lobby host allows for it, you can cheat in lobbies

r0hkxOP2 months ago

if you're griefing lobbies by joining and insta winning you still might get banned

r0hkxOP2 months ago

but generally if you're hosting a lobby you can do whatever you want in it

1

Emily2 months ago

huh good to know

SOOT2 months ago(edited)

Yay I won’t be banned cuz I used key rebinding to break bedrock in blackout aga

.reixyz2 months ago

is bedrock break allowed and if soe is it easy to use for like die by void?

.reixyz2 months ago

is there a consistent / cheap setup or is just going to the end always bettter

noura 🜛2 months ago

bedrock breaking is allowed yes, you can see https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1515352972325028002 for some setups

Fox4 🦊2 months ago

Going to the end rn is better in most cases but you're free to find a better setup

SOOT2 months ago

Break bedrock only takes 2 pistons and a tnt I would say breaking bedrock is better more times than not, especially if you’re caving

.reixyz2 months ago

there are deff cases where 2 pistons tnt is an easier set of matts than going to the end

.reixyz2 months ago

but it depends on how realistic it is to do

DriftSythe2 months ago

how consistent is it

DriftSythe2 months ago

or like how difficult is it to execute the setup

SOOT2 months ago

Setup is really easy you just dig around for a shape of bedrock that works get a lever that connects to a piston above the bedrock that is able to extend and a tnt that will break it, then you crawl and drag click the 2nd piston to place facing down towards the bedrock the tick after the piston breaks which should retract a headless piston breaking the bedrock

SOOT2 months ago(edited)

It’s 100% consistent if you can drag click 20 cps

SOOT2 months ago

If you can’t click fast enough you can bring extra pistons and tnt hold right click and pray you get the right timing

DriftSythe2 months ago

that’s not consistent

maskers2 months ago

someone posted a consistent setup that uses the fact that holding right click clicks in certain known intervals for breaking nether roof bedrock

DriftSythe2 months ago

o true if it's timing based maybe you could have some sort of setup for the timing similar to portal break

SOOT2 months ago

People can drag click 20 cps consistently

DriftSythe2 months ago

yea well most draftout players even in the top 100 cannot

DriftSythe2 months ago

if it’s not something the majority of people can do easily I personally wouldn’t call it consistent even if semantically it is

chloe2 months ago

consistent if drag click basically just means not consistent unless you spend a million dollars

DriftSythe2 months ago

yea pretty much

chloe2 months ago

also this doesnt mean anything. afaik drag clicks are generally <1s long and therefore those 20 clicks would be bunched up in only a bit of that second period rather than spread through a second

DriftSythe2 months ago

^

chloe2 months ago(edited)

people use drag clicking as a thing as if it makes every timing baby easy but ive seen people who drag mess up boat clutches since theres still a timing element to it

DriftSythe2 months ago

if you need to be clicking at every tick then 20 cps drag isn’t the solution

chloe2 months ago(edited)

maybe it makes that timing easier and such but its not like its brainless

chloe2 months ago

In My Opinion

chloe2 months ago

AS someone who Does not drag

SOOT2 months ago

Ik, you have to time the drag with when the tnt blows up

DriftSythe2 months ago(edited)

yea cuz you still need to start the drag at the right time if you’re not long dragging

chloe2 months ago

if there is still a timing element to it then it wont be 100% consistent due to general brain rng

SOOT2 months ago

Also I forgot the mention but power source had to get blown up before piston

chloe2 months ago

unless that timing is like. super super easy. but anything within a drag click of time is not

SOOT2 months ago

Doesn’t tnt have a visual indicator for when it blows up

DriftSythe2 months ago

WE will be downloading the tnt timer mod for draftout

chloe2 months ago

kinda?

DriftSythe2 months ago

screw the visual indicator

SOOT2 months ago

Ig you’re right

SOOT2 months ago

That it’s not 100% consistent

chloe2 months ago

100% with drag is a oxymoron

SOOT2 months ago

Also some explosion rng probably

chloe2 months ago

since drag is so finicky

SOOT2 months ago

But with practice you should be able to get it almost every time within 2 attempts

SOOT2 months ago

Which just means bringing 2 tnt instead of 1

DriftSythe2 months ago

there’s like some nether portal tech I saw for break bedrock but idk how it works

chloe2 months ago

^

SOOT2 months ago

https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1515352972325028002/1515352972325028002
according to this message the setups are only 90% consistent due to explosion rng

SOOT2 months ago

https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1515799132390953000/1516232640917803019
People saying stuff like this is the only thing I can find, and it does seem to be like 80% consistent from my testing

SOOT2 months ago(edited)

but no one posted a setup afaik

diboof2 months ago

wasnt ninjabrain bot already banned

Rudy2 months ago

yes?

Rudy2 months ago

diboof2 months ago

y r they saying they r banning it???????

Rudy2 months ago

they said that

Rudy2 months ago

when it got banned

Rudy2 months ago

they havent said it again?

SOOT2 months ago

True

diboof2 months ago

in public help they did

Rudy2 months ago

thats someone asking about the ruling on it

Rudy2 months ago

its a player forwarding the message, asking for clarification on a specific part

SOOT2 months ago

That was someone forwarding an old message asking for clarification on it

SOOT2 months ago

Noooo

SOOT2 months ago

My message got sniped agar

Rudy2 months ago

gg

Rudy2 months ago

announcements by devs will always be in the announcement channels and by a dev aga

SOOT2 months ago

Threadfinn2 months ago

From the complete src rules sheet: "D.1.1) Only these glitches may be used during glitchless runs. ... D.1.1.f) Accessing the Nether Roof"

From the Draftout website: "The following is a complete list of glitches that are allowed: ... Breaking bedrock (nullifying speedrun rule D.1.2.v)"

Neither of these mentions specific mentions by which the allowed behavior may be achieved. So why is every bedrock breaking glitch assumed to be allowed, while not every nether roof access glitch is assumed to be allowed? Following the rules, using a glitched piston head isn't specifically allowed, so it should be banned the same way using a fence gate to glitch through bedrock is banned.

r0hkxOP2 months ago

D.1.1) Only these glitches may be used during glitchless runs.
...
- D.1.1.f) Accessing the Nether Roof (Example)
...
D.1.2) Any other glitches not included in D.1.1 must not be used during glitchless runs.
...
- D.1.2.v) Breaking blocks intended to be unbreakable (Example)

D.1.1.f doesn't mean that any method of accessing the nether roof is automatically allowed, it just means that accessing the nether roof is not inherently a glitch. D.1.2.v similarly is just a blanket statement that breaking unbreakable blocks is always considered a glitch

r0hkxOP2 months ago

breaking bedrock glitch is not "assumed to be allowed", it a specific modification to the speedrun rules made by the draftout rules

r0hkxOP2 months ago

breaking bedrock with any method is allowed in draftout

r0hkxOP2 months ago

The following is a complete list of glitches that are allowed:
- Breaking bedrock (nullifying speedrun rule D.1.2.v)

Threadfinn2 months ago(edited)

But at the top of D.1.1 it says "these glitches may be used", therefore anything on the list (including accessing nether roof) is officially considered a glitch. Anything under d.1.1 is always a glitch, just one that is allowed for glitchless.

A piston being extended into another block is a separate glitch from breaking bedrock. As an example, this glitch could be used to break other blocks than bedrock, such as end portal frames. That feels similar to pearl clipping upwards through a block being different from accessing the nether roof, since it can also be used to clip through other blocks such as end stone.

Threadfinn2 months ago

I do prefer the interpretation for both rules that implies all methods of achieving the allowed glitch are therefore allowed by default.

2

Threadfinn2 months ago

But it seems like if nether roof access being allowed =/= all upwards block clipping being allowed, then breaking bedrock =/= all block breaking glitches being allowed.

Threadfinn2 months ago

D.1.v does say all unbreakable blocks so nullifying it would allow breaking end portal frames, but again that doesn't allow all glitches that break blocks. Mushrooms growing and replacing other blocks is a separate glitch from piston heads being placed inside other blocks, and currently neither are explicitly allowed.

Threadfinn2 months ago

(was the mushroom thing patched I feel like it might be in recent versions?)

Threadfinn2 months ago

Anyways, why can't we just say that fence gate/ladder block clipping is allowed in draftout.

frey2 months ago

why is alts not allowed

frey2 months ago

(pretty sure its a rule from mcsr too not actually draftout)

Rudy2 months ago

to stop smurfing & ban evading

Rudy2 months ago

or if someones been kicked out of the community for doing something weird they cant easily make a comeback on some brand new account that no one knows about aga

Threadfinn2 months ago

Why would you need an alt? You have access to all the same features on any account you use. The only reasons an alt would be beneficial is so you could play competitive at a different rank than your actual skill, so you can cheat without your main getting banned, or so you can play after your main was already banned. So why should alts be allowed?

frey2 months ago

they can prob do somethging abt both tho like they got IPS probably

frey2 months ago

still smurfing should be allowed

4333

Threadfinn2 months ago

What is the reason to have smurfing in a 1v1 game? It already ruins the experience for lower ranked players in team games, but if you have friends that are a lower rank you have to smurf to be able to play with them. In a 1v1 game the only reason to smurf is to farm wins against easy opponents. You can do that in quickplay assuming you're above average at the game, and the lack of elo shouldn't matter since you're otherwise intentionally keeping your elo low so you can smurf.

beniibobs2 months ago

why on earth would you want that

.reixyz2 months ago

cause he already did it and got banned for it

DriftSythe2 months ago

??

Rudy2 months ago

DriftSythe2 months ago

because it's fun and fair to queue up and face people who are 1000 elo higher than you in competitive

frey2 months ago

regardless of that

frey2 months ago

tough

frey2 months ago

so what if fein smurfs you face him once

.reixyz2 months ago(edited)

skill based match making is an intentional design protocol that nearly all competive games have settled into for a reason; circumventing it creates low quality games and wastes people's time

.reixyz2 months ago

some people actually have lives and don't want 20 minutes wasted (maybe up to an hour if you consider that they might play a 40 min game to regain the lost elo)

.reixyz2 months ago(edited)

playing vs feinberg, for 99% of players is the same thing as being handed a loss randomly- or by a super advanced tas AI such as stockfish, if you want another way of looking at it

Rudy2 months ago

Just makes a players experience worse in general allowing it with 0 benefit to the draftout team

Emily2 months ago

What reason should there be to allow smurfs? It ruins the game for lower elo players if a high elo player is smashing them, just play on ur main

Rudy2 months ago

And what reason would you want to smurf as the smurfer in the first place

.reixyz2 months ago

the elo system is just also very explicitly not designed to have the same person enter into it multiple times under different identifiers- for instance, if someone DOES beat the smurf they should gain the full elo as if they beat your main- but because you hid your rank from the system, they don't; they don't get the normal upside of beating you and you mitigate all risk to yourself unfairly also.

7

Uniquepotatoes2 months ago

why are we arguing with the guy with 4 alts some of which were banned for cheating

Uniquepotatoes2 months ago

the dude is trolling

Rudy2 months ago

Funny

Rudy2 months ago

Funny hill to be on

frey2 months ago

The main reasons people give for banning alts are: Stopping people from smurfing lower ranks, Stopping ban evasion
Those are fair concerns. But a total ban on having a second account is overkill and doesn’t actually solve it

Better way to handle it: Ban the behaviour, not the account.
Intentionally losing / soft throwing to stay in a low rank / giving elo to yourself--> ban that
Ban evasion --> self explanatory
Account sharing (multiple people on one account) --> keep that banned

In a pure 1v1 Elo system, smurfing doesn’t last long. If someone is actually high elo, they climb out of low ranks extremely fast. The “stomping noobs” phase is short. It’s not like team games where one smurf can ruin 10 games in a row. Like I could go make a new alt right now and get to 2000 elo within a DAY if I played enough. I don't get banned off my IP I get banned for being "too good as an alt" which is absolute bs and says a lot abt the game. If the same happens in mcsr nobody is going to gaf

People have normal reasons for alts:
Wanting a separate account for streaming/content maybe
Testing strategies without risking main Elo against others or just to play less seriously on
Coming back after a long break like feinberg who said hes apparently gonna take a 2w break...
Just not wanting every single ranked game permanently tied to their main name. I can't even reset ANY stats for whatever reason, even though they already do this for all the hard cheaters. Harmless as well...
None of those are “trying to ruin the game.”

Rudy2 months ago

"Testing strategies without risking main Elo against others or just to play less seriously on" Play casual!
"Coming back after a long break like feinberg who said hes apparently gonna take a 2w break..." Play casual!

i also would never imagine a universe where feinberg would even think to play on an alt after a break, if you are worse AFTER a break, it would make sense to see a dip in your elo since your skill would've been worse at that point in time.

Rudy2 months ago

explain which of thsoe normal reasons apply to you aswell aga

Emily2 months ago

Yea the main issue is, the moment u start using an alt in comp which 99% of the time is lower rank, you're ruining the game for whoever you queue into no matter the reason

frey2 months ago

i js wanted a stats reset but couldn't even get that

Rudy2 months ago

"Alternate accounts are not allowed. Likewise, account sharing is not allowed. One player may only use one Minecraft account, and each Minecraft account may only be used by one player. If you wish to change the account you play with, contact Draftout staff."

Rudy2 months ago

If you wish to change the account you play with, contact Draftout staff.

Uniquepotatoes2 months ago

what the hell would you need “stats reset” for

Rudy2 months ago

also yeah

frey2 months ago

to reset your stats

Uniquepotatoes2 months ago

why would you need that

Rudy2 months ago

keep track of your own stats if you want to see a different number

frey2 months ago

personal enlightenment

Rudy2 months ago

so for personal enlightenment they should allow smurfing to ruin the experience of worse players

frey2 months ago

play 3 games of unranked get into 1300 elo straight away

frey2 months ago

is that really considered noob players

Rudy2 months ago

low enough to still get stomped on by a 1600+ yes?

Emily2 months ago

1300 out of the gate is the upper placement

Emily2 months ago

Alot of ppl get placed like 1100 or below unless u win all 3

Rudy2 months ago

theres a reason all smurfs have had like 8+ winstreaks those opponents are not hard enough for them, that and 90% of the time theyre cheating

frey2 months ago

point is that itd be a good plyer though

Emily2 months ago

Thats still 3 ppls games you've ruined

frey2 months ago

Yk what else ruins my game? When the server disconnects

Emily2 months ago

At minimum

Rudy2 months ago

and we're in open beta!

Emily2 months ago

If the main server crashes for everyone we refund/cancel those games

Emily2 months ago

You dont lose anything

frey2 months ago

cant remember if it ever happened to me

frey2 months ago

still ruined the game

frey2 months ago

ruined the 20-60mins of time as someone else said above

Rudy2 months ago

if you lost the match cause of a server crash you just auto got it refunded

Rudy2 months ago

then why is the 20-60 mins of someone you smurf on not important?

Rudy2 months ago

no one here is telling you server crashes are a good intended thing

frey2 months ago

nth stops me from continuing alting

Rudy2 months ago

ok?

Rudy2 months ago

and the games youu alt on get refunded aga

frey2 months ago

apparently ive had banned alts in the past too which im not familiar w/ at all

frey2 months ago

so what do u suggest?

Rudy2 months ago

if you have or havent doesnt change much to me

frey2 months ago

should I "contact staff" to change my main?

Rudy2 months ago

fym what do i suggest i dont suggest shit you were the one who made the suggestion to allow it

Rudy2 months ago

no bro you broke the rules you're banned

frey2 months ago

ive not got any of my alts banned for cheating

Rudy2 months ago

alting IS the rules

frey2 months ago

you are like the class snitch lol

Rudy2 months ago

okay

1

frey2 months ago

so what abt the kid that was on leaderboards and got banned for doing a fence glitch to get to the nether roof?

frey2 months ago

he got banned

frey2 months ago

and then unbanned

Rudy2 months ago

he is very normal about it and had a good point about the clarity of the ruling on it aga

frey2 months ago

nah but its the rules

Emily2 months ago

A good way to go about it is appeal said ban and show any form of remorse, neither of which you did. Now this topic is getting out of hand for a rules suggestion

frey2 months ago

you mods provide 0 evidence

frey2 months ago

i cant even get names

Rudy2 months ago

https://tenor.com/view/w-speed-ishowspeed-please-speed-i-need-this-my-mom-is-kind-of-homeless-speed-respect-gif-2468087313805501337

W Speed Ishowspeed GIF - W Speed Ishowspeed Please Speed I Need This - Discover & Share GIFs

frey2 months ago

im still waiting for answers on a ticket from 2 weeks ago

frey2 months ago

fyi

frey2 months ago

maybe 3 by now

Rudy2 months ago

what was your question aga

frey2 months ago

it wasn't a question man

frey2 months ago

"answers" on a action they made

Rudy2 months ago

what was the action aga

Emily2 months ago

You currently dont have an open ticket, if youd like to open one and be respectful in it, we'd be happy to help

Emily2 months ago

But again this is off topic for rules suggestion

frey2 months ago

its an alt

frey2 months ago

dont ban me for smurfing in the discord

Emily2 months ago

What's the ticket #?

Emily2 months ago

Ill look into it

frey2 months ago

no chance

Rudy2 months ago

ok im done here

7rowl2 months ago(edited)

hilarious

Emily2 months ago

Hi rowl

7rowl2 months ago

hi emily and cheese guy

Rudy2 months ago

frey2 months ago

are u cheese guy

7rowl2 months ago

nt

frey2 months ago

what did the farmer say when he lost his tractor

frey2 months ago

wheres my tractor

maya2 months ago

nt!

DriftSythe2 months ago

if I played on a fresh account I would probably win by a large margin for at least the first like 15 games it's just not fun for the lower elo player who has to face someone significantly better than them and lose elo not according to the gap in their skill, alting just ruins the competitive integrity of the game

maya2 months ago

it really doesn't matter if its 1 game or 20

DriftSythe2 months ago

I mean it does

maya2 months ago

its just a stain on competitive integrity to allow people who are already good to play on new accounts against completely new players

1

Rudy2 months ago

we're all gonna bite our words when the next update allows smurfing

Rudy2 months ago

eat our words i think i mean

maya2 months ago

yummy words

Uniquepotatoes2 months ago

alts will be banned until a streamer bribes the mods to allow it

2

frey2 months ago

^ like the update of remove parched. suggestion from fein

7rowl2 months ago

It was a valid suggestion with a lot of objective and subjective points, not a random complaint like most people do. If everybody structured their suggestions that well and argued civilly about it, it would be a lot easier to implement community's ideas

12

jes2 months ago

are resource packs that come with vanilla minecraft allowed? i.e. high contrast and programmer art

Threadfinn2 months ago

yes they're allowed

1

Uniquepotatoes2 months ago

I suggest to add a rule that deranking/spam ffing on purpose is not allowed. It’s effectively smurfing and ruins the experience for others + it’s cringe. aga

10

DriftSythe2 months ago

yea like I remember someone was spam ffing to iron a while back to farm records or smthing it’s just kinda lame

maya2 months ago

its definitely very discouraged

Uniquepotatoes2 months ago(edited)

it’s not stated anywhere in the rules so I just thought it was a good thing to add clearly :)

“discouraged” doesn’t really mean anything

nsla2 months ago

if u ff like 3 times in a row u should be barred from queuing for like 12 hours

6

DriftSythe2 months ago

imo make it so if you ff under 10 minutes or smthing

DriftSythe2 months ago

because I don't think you should be punished for ffing 30 minute games

DriftSythe2 months ago

but I do think a queue penalty is a good idea

SOOT2 months ago

yeah thats fine

SOOT2 months ago

draftout is very different to ranked because its extremely hard for your opponent to throw everything if they're extremely far ahead so forfeiting is more valid imo and kinda like a way to not waste you and your opponents time like in chess

4

stum!2 months ago

ff under 10 min = queueban for 30 min

stum!2 months ago

with warning "are u sure u want to forfeit? you will be queue banned for 30 mins"

EliteMaster2 months ago

it shud be if it’s excessive, not based on time imo

EliteMaster2 months ago

cuz it could be fast early game and opp wins almost all and then u just lose

Emily2 months ago

Yea, my belief as a player/watcher of draftout is like, forfiets should be punished if done in excess, I.e to purposely derank, to wintrade with a specific person etc. Rather than forfeiting quick in a doomed game

61

DriftSythe2 months ago

could be goal based then

2

.reixyz2 months ago

i mean i think people would just afk for 11 mins tab back in and then ff

.reixyz2 months ago(edited)

recently i did ff a game in a few mins bc it was iglo slop board and he sniped everything from me like 0-5 in like 3 mins

.reixyz2 months ago(edited)

and they were much higher elo anyway so v unlikely to come back

.reixyz2 months ago

ff'ing in a single player game isn't a big issue- if your opp does it; enjoy the free elo. if you don't like it, don't do it yourself.

.reixyz2 months ago

sure it could create smurfs but thats sort of a seperate issue thats not directly related

.reixyz2 months ago(edited)

deranking is deranking-- it's not mods responsibility just to remove every tool that potentially enables a rule break related to deranking; in the same sense that they aren't obligated to cheat proof the game in other ways like restrictive anti cheat

Rules Suggestions