Discord Forum Board

LawnOP3 days ago

I can’t think of a disadvantage to allowing it though

maskers3 days ago

it changes how you play the game in a way that imo isnt fun

maskers3 days ago

in the same way that allowing xray texture packs would lead to the game being less fun imo

maskers3 days ago

ideally yeah though its not as trivial

LawnOP3 days ago

I like it because it can be done with a fully vanilla client and unlike mcsr ranked, draftout doesn’t have to conform to strict rules like how mcsr ranked does

LawnOP3 days ago

also the obvious pros of no cheater problems and skill favored over RNG

inoutoftherain3 days ago

there is no skill in this

inoutoftherain3 days ago

i hope they can just patch it out

LawnOP3 days ago

it evens the playing field by eliminating guessing

LawnOP3 days ago

instead of luckily finding something, you just find it

inoutoftherain3 days ago

it doesn't even do that

LawnOP3 days ago

I don’t understand

inoutoftherain3 days ago

it doesn't eliminate guessing

LawnOP3 days ago

if both players need a cave, they can find a cave rather than them both guessing and one finds a cave and wins while the other loses

inoutoftherain3 days ago

and if you can xray for things then nobody will learn other ways to do it

maskers3 days ago

this would be in src terms the equivalent of following glitched rules instead of glitchless? which, in basically every minecraft gamemode/competition/etc isnt the default
i think this suggestion would have a lot more merit if glitchless wasnt the default mindset in pretty much everything, mcsr and not mcsr

maskers3 days ago

u can consistently find caves in rivers/ocean

LawnOP3 days ago

“other ways to do it” as in educated guessing

inoutoftherain3 days ago

as in f3 strats for one thing

inoutoftherain3 days ago

you want to legalize xray so people can just know where the bastion is?

inoutoftherain3 days ago

this is an elimination of both skill and knowledge

inoutoftherain3 days ago

and you want to do it because kwist cheated again?

LawnOP3 days ago

the purpose is more for underground overworld situations

owlbot3 days ago

i'd be fine with disabling it but it feels way less intrusive than allowing ninjabrain bot

inoutoftherain3 days ago

the purpose to you, but not the main use

LawnOP3 days ago

anyone can cheat and not get caught

inoutoftherain3 days ago

not kwist apparently

inoutoftherain3 days ago

sorry, trying not to say something rude

inoutoftherain3 days ago

but i get the legalize things you can't police idea to an extent, i do, but not something that full eliminates a lot of the skill involved in the game

maskers3 days ago

i don't think this should be the argument for a gameplay change that will completely change how the game is played though
ideally xray gets patched for sure, but theres also always ways to cheat

LawnOP3 days ago

yeah, it’s just an added pro, not the main argument

owlbot3 days ago(edited)

in the end it's pretty much personal opinion, you could also argue that using the coordinates from the debug menu eliminates a ton of orientation skill
I personally would draw the line somewhere between f3+a xray and ninjabrain bot

LawnOP3 days ago

I don’t think there’s any issues with this change and it has a bonus of eliminating cheating

inoutoftherain3 days ago

and that would not be a good argument

inoutoftherain3 days ago

i've just spent the last five minutes telling you the issue with it

LawnOP3 days ago

f3+a is what I’m referring to when I say x-ray

maskers3 days ago

my issue with it is that its not in the spirit of the game at all
i think people would agree that this is a glitch and i think people wouldnt want/expect glitches to be legal

inoutoftherain3 days ago

lol so you want to legalize an xray glitch but you draw the line at a calculator? yeah we're just never going to see this the same way

owlbot3 days ago

i think there's that and the clipping through blocks xray where imo f3+a xray is worse than clipping through blocks because it's always an intentional action

LawnOP3 days ago

how is using f3+a meaningfully different from using the pie chart to locate the exact chunk of an underground structure you would never find otherwise

AKI3 days ago

The skill ceiling of knowing caves is so high and this fully eliminates this

AKI3 days ago

And that's just not a good thing

LawnOP3 days ago

what strats are there for knowing caves

maskers3 days ago

the community's perception

LawnOP3 days ago

I think that’s just closed mindedness

Rudy3 days ago

?

LawnOP3 days ago

because it’s just the subjective way people view something

AKI3 days ago

Knowing the cave generation

AKI3 days ago

And that's like very oversimplifying it

Rudy3 days ago

c counter in f3, erosion counter in f3

Rudy3 days ago(edited)

subtitles for mobs, lava

Bompkin3 days ago

water cave theory

Bompkin3 days ago

!!!

maskers3 days ago

looking at ocean floor
uncommitting from bad caves

Rudy3 days ago

water cave yep

maskers3 days ago(edited)

not digging straight down in nowhere

LawnOP3 days ago

it’s all educated guesses

Rudy3 days ago

specific y levels for lava generation and ores n shit

maskers3 days ago

if you see a good ocean cave you will know its good

AKI3 days ago

U can look at a cave wall and know what's behind it if it's a specific wall type

Rudy3 days ago

mhm

Rudy3 days ago

knowing like trial chamber generation in caves too

Bompkin3 days ago

yea knowing trial chamber behind a wall is very skill based too

Rudy3 days ago

knowing likely cave biomes like deep dark from biomes up top and erosion

Bompkin3 days ago

geodes are the biggest rng thing i see in lockout

Bompkin3 days ago

obviously pulling things from shipwrecks and rps is luck but u will find them in ocean fs

Rudy3 days ago

theres knowledge in caves that people have learnt over years of playing this game i dont see why we should encourage xraying

LawnOP3 days ago

I think the only reason it would be a bad idea is because of how people view it than what it actually is

Rudy3 days ago

especially when thats a slope into just using composter xray to find a geode and digging right down onto it

Rudy3 days ago

you're describing an opinion

LawnOP3 days ago

should we not allow pie chart to find trial chambers and fortresses because there’s skill to knowing quadrants and trading for a map?

Rudy3 days ago

pie chart is an intended feature the devs put in the game

LawnOP3 days ago

they didn’t intend for players to use it

Rudy3 days ago

????

Rudy3 days ago

yes they did

Rudy3 days ago

they perhaps didnt expect us to use it how we do.

Rudy3 days ago

but it does its purpose

maskers3 days ago

i think this is sufficient
everyone has played the game like this without xraying and you enjoy playing what you're used to/got good at

LawnOP3 days ago

it was made as a developer tool for helping devs understand what causes lag

LawnOP3 days ago

f3+a is a developer tool that was made to reload textures and it has another unintended use just like the piechart does

Rudy3 days ago

i think you misunderstand what it means by intended purpose when defining glitches

Rudy3 days ago

f3+a is legal, its not legal using it to xray, they didnt add f3+a to xray

Rudy3 days ago

pie chart is legal. they intended pie chart to view what entities are being loaded

Rudy3 days ago

thats what we use it for

Rudy3 days ago

thats legal

Rudy3 days ago

i think it should just be fixed in the same way ranked has fixed it personally

LawnOP3 days ago

what’s the actual difference though, that’s just semantics

Rudy3 days ago

but this discussion is something thats happened time and time again

LawnOP3 days ago

it’s not like game breaking

Rudy3 days ago

no, thats just the definition of a glitch

LawnOP3 days ago

it’s as game breaking as the pie chart is

Rudy3 days ago

thats just how the src mods have defined it

Rudy3 days ago

i also dont think we should stick to src

Rudy3 days ago

but i think its just obviously silly to be allowing an xray glitch

Rudy3 days ago

no one calls pie chart a glitch

LawnOP3 days ago

it’s not like you can find netherite and diamonds with it

LawnOP3 days ago

why do labels matter so much, just think about what it does

LawnOP3 days ago

like you find caves and necessary things that otherwise you may not find through educated guessing

Rudy3 days ago

draftout has goals that would make xray glitch specifically useful i dont get this point

Rudy3 days ago

maybe in a survival world its a bit less useful since you cant get your 1 million diamonds and netherite to build your beacon and base

LawnOP3 days ago

I don’t think it’s fair to compare f3+a to full x-ray

maskers3 days ago

because thats how most people will think of it
its silly to allow something that most people would consider to be a glitch that should be banned and wouldnt want to play with

LawnOP3 days ago

logic matters to me more

Rudy3 days ago

i think its logical to label it a glitch aga

maskers3 days ago

and xray has to be egregious enough of a glitch

LawnOP3 days ago

it’s logical to label f3 and the pie chart as a glitch because it has the same severity of things you can do with it, people are just used to it so they don’t think about it

Rudy3 days ago

nope

owlbot3 days ago

definitely, but there's a list of 57 allowed glitches

Rudy3 days ago

is a mace a glitch cause thats pretty fucking severe if i hit a warden from 200 blocks

1

LawnOP3 days ago

it was created with the intention for players to use

Rudy3 days ago

this argument isnt about something being good = not allowed

LawnOP3 days ago

pie chart was not

LawnOP3 days ago

it’s about something unintended and good both

Rudy3 days ago

we had this exact convo and you just disagree with me bro

Rudy3 days ago

pie chart was 100% intended to show entities, block entities, etc, when added, it was also added using f3 with info on screen how to open it. It wasnt a secret thing only for game devs, it was purposely made accessable for everyone

LawnOP3 days ago

yeah because it’s called debug menu and the ONLY reason you can still use it and there’s only server options to toggle it is because people figured it out and got used to it before they removed it

Rudy3 days ago

when the devs coded in the fov and view bobbing, at no point they were like 'oh maybe this can be used to look through walls'

LawnOP3 days ago

I guarantee if they could go back in time they wouldn’t make debug features available for all players to use

Rudy3 days ago

okay

Rudy3 days ago

so?

Rudy3 days ago

do we live in that time

Rudy3 days ago

its available for all players

Rudy3 days ago

thats why its not a bug

LawnOP3 days ago

semantics

Rudy3 days ago

thats why its allowed and xray isnt

Rudy3 days ago

you're trying to come up with rules

Rudy3 days ago

i think semantics are important

Rudy3 days ago

theres a reason mcsr rules are so complicated and controvertial

Rudy3 days ago

like should oneshot be allowed?

Rudy3 days ago

thats why thats an argument

Rudy3 days ago

but theres reasons why theres discussion on why oneshot should be allowed and not

Ravalle3 days ago

"people in top 5"
1 person

LawnOP3 days ago

did the devs create the pie chart like “oh, this could be used to find an underground structure that you’re supposed to get a map for”

Rudy3 days ago

and theres reason why no one brings up xray

Rudy3 days ago

im going insane

Ravalle3 days ago

honestly lawn you can give up arguing you're not gonna turn the tide on this one lol

maskers3 days ago

what about seedcracking
i believe right now the only argument why its only not allowed for speedrun.com rsg categories because it goes against the spirit of the category that you have no information about the seed, and everyone wouldnt want this to be otherwise
but you can also argue that finding 4 shipwrecks (?) and then knowing exactly where each structure is would have less rng

LawnOP3 days ago

yeah, unlucky

Rudy3 days ago

https://tenor.com/view/w-speed-ishowspeed-please-speed-i-need-this-my-mom-is-kind-of-homeless-speed-respect-gif-2468087313805501337

LawnOP3 days ago

yeah like how creative mode would eliminate rng

LawnOP3 days ago

rng in finding things actually is a big reason I didn’t play lockout with friends when I had the opportunity to though, I think it is an issue but I’m not sure if seedcracking is the best thing to do about it

r0hkx3 days ago

its probably going to get patched out

LawnOP3 days ago

better than what we have now, but I think there’s an argument to be made about rng in finding things still

LawnOP3 days ago

also the main difference is that seedcracking isn’t vanilla

AKI3 days ago

lockout just has rng so draftout will always have rng unless we fully change what draftout is

LawnOP3 days ago

agreed

LawnOP3 days ago

but eliminating some of it doesn’t hurt

AKI3 days ago

so why r we trying to change what draftout is

LawnOP3 days ago

like yeah there’s rng to finding structures and sending random directions in the overworld and stuff like

LawnOP3 days ago

you can have that

AKI3 days ago

lowering the skill ceiling to have a bit less rng is not good for a competitive game

LawnOP3 days ago

I still don’t see any actual consistent cave stats all you talked about is “knowing cave generation” which is vague and one thing about knowing what’s behind walls that can still be used

r0hkx3 days ago

im fairly certain that xray will just not be allowed in draftout

LawnOP3 days ago

AKI3 days ago

its very hard to explain but if u play alot alot u will start to understand how caves work and what direction is better to go and how to find them

r0hkx3 days ago

its just not really what draftout is supposed to be, not for any specific gameplay reasons or anything

r0hkx3 days ago

i see you closed and locked this thread but i want to also say that im not an authority on this, this is just my personal opinion

r0hkx3 days ago

i unlocked and reopened the thread and id encourage you to keep it open so it can be discussed

allow vanilla “x-ray”