Discord Forum Board

AKI6 days ago

I feel like disallowing ninbot would add alot more skill to getting to the stronghold+ goals and since the mode isn't rlly to get a really fast time like speedrunning I think disallowing it could be cool also makes it so it takes less setup for newer players and that's always good

maskers6 days ago

- it will improve game accessibility for people from outside of mcsr (way easier setup, though endgame goals are barely a thing)
- kinda unrelated to the suggestion but you can do it by slightly changing f3+c format to stop people from using it without knowing its banned

171

wookie6 days ago(edited)

I think it shouldnty be banned cause its just another way you can "improve" it would be like trying to ban people using external tables and charts for help with other tasks because new players wouldnt have access to them it just kinda slows down the top level for no reason

7

wookie6 days ago

I think whatever happens the descision should be made sooner rather than later though cause the longer you leave it the more controversial a change would be

19

Bompkin6 days ago

I wouldnt mind this in this gamemode specifically would probably be a good thing to do

r0hkxOP6 days ago(edited)

whats the limit? if there was an external tool that you input all your objectives into (lets say manually, during the draft, so it would be legal under the current written rules), and the tool told you exactly which ones you should go for first (based on precalculated match statistics) plus exact steps to do each one, should this be allowed?

the line needs to be drawn somewhere, and the more strictly it gets drawn, the more flexibility we have in the future to make these decisions more deliberately and with more experience on how the game actually works

4

DriftSythe6 days ago

imo things like nbb and toolscreen just increase the barrier of entry and it's just not something that really has a major positive competitive impact on draftout

12

closure6 days ago

toolscreen is decently impactful for bastion eray

closure6 days ago

Or any resize tool

DriftSythe6 days ago

30 fov exists

maskers6 days ago

not anywhere comparable to boateye

closure6 days ago

30 fov needs more inputs though

r0hkxOP6 days ago(edited)

resizing and mirrors are another area where i think the speedrun.com/mc rules are too permissive but yeah compared to ninbot they make about zero difference in draftout (even ninbot without resizing or mirrors is extremely powerful)

DriftSythe6 days ago

when I meant major positive competitive impact I mean like something that decreases luck and makes it more skill based which is sorta the whole idea behind nbb in speedrunning from what I know

closure6 days ago

Ok icic

DriftSythe6 days ago

yea I think resizing and mirrors are another discussion altogether

5776 days ago

Could also just remove f3c lol

DriftSythe6 days ago

I just mentioned toolscreen because it's another thing that increases barrier of entry

5776 days ago

Theres not really any competitive use for it other than calc stuff

maskers6 days ago(edited)

ive used it to quickly copy coords for later

DriftSythe6 days ago

it's useful for marking coords

DriftSythe6 days ago

eg you can f3 c on nether enter for nether portal coords

augustln6 days ago

there should be a hypervanilla mode

KnowerMeh6 days ago

I mean what if instead of ninbot, throwing the ender eye just gives you the coords in chat to the nearest stronghold, then new players wouldn't have the barrier to entry and ninbot wouldn't be necessary

KnowerMeh6 days ago

Also Draftout's Endgames are already super long, so if we are going for SH/End, its prob better in the long run

Catapulfy6 days ago

this is just worse because its just not vanilla minecraft anymor at all

1

maskers6 days ago

i wonder how common even is it for players to have to do endgame goals on different elo ranges

KnowerMeh6 days ago

I think its worth it for decreasing this specific aspect's barrier to entry, I also dont think it sets a precedent for anything else, all that would need to be added is that if an ender eye is thrown, /locate stronghold would be run or something

KnowerMeh6 days ago

Its not like the non ninbot methods of finding stronghold position is more intuitive anyway

Catapulfy5 days ago

ok well this implies that bt maps and maps from cartogrophers should do this also

Catapulfy5 days ago

like it just becomes to complicated of an issue if u add that

maskers5 days ago

giving exact coords? no, digging on 9,9 is a very easy thing to learn compared to setting up boateye
and idk wdym by cartographer maps

Catapulfy5 days ago

thats not the point of what im saying tho

maskers5 days ago

then idgi

Catapulfy5 days ago

like im just saying its a bad idea

maskers5 days ago(edited)

i agree that id personally rather play without it but i don't agree with your argument that we'd need to then do more non vanilla changes
unless im still misunderstanding it

maskers5 days ago

this would also allow you to throw an eye in a cave and have it go into a wall and not measure it

KnowerMeh5 days ago

they are very different things, one gives u an exact x to dig on the other is following a random direction the eye flies in, obv you can triangulate with an eye to get coords, but in terms of practical practice, a bt map is infinitely easier to follow + find

KnowerMeh5 days ago

You could set it to be above a certain y value and tbh I dont see much of a harm in getting coords if ur throwing ur eye into the wall

KnowerMeh5 days ago

If you are already going to the end in Draftout, ur already so deep into the game, so if you get coords in a cave, ur opponent can too

KnowerMeh5 days ago

Its just mutual timesave

maskers5 days ago

setting it to be above a certain y value is even weirder, you can often measure eyes in large caves

KnowerMeh5 days ago

I just think from a practical perspective throwing the ender eye and getting coords is just better for the game overall

KnowerMeh5 days ago

It does remove skill yes, but I dont think it removes the primary skill of Draftout, which is the decision making

maskers5 days ago(edited)

ig it's already very non vanilla so sure
to me as a player coming from mcsr it just seems like a very nonvanilla feature

KnowerMeh5 days ago

tbh I think u should be able to throw ur eye anywhere in the ow and get coords, I really dont see the harm in it and it really only removes the main need for external tools for people who are new

maskers5 days ago

not to forget about the original point of this thread, we can also remove this need by banning calculators

FoggyCurve5 days ago

Find sh/end is usually 3 goals max and for the time input required nb bot is needed to make people vaguely happy to go for those goals, as a casual no nb bot would make me never pick anything end related and could make games for lower elos 10-20 mins longer (on games that are already 1hr+) for minimal benefit imo however an alternative I could think of would be to prevent 2nd portal from generating within x distance of the sh? And/or forcing it to be surface (not that this is a big issues as it’s unlikely you portal into starter on this version) This would provide a reduction in viability without alienating lower ranked players coming from the wider mcsr community

plushie5 days ago

I’m in the 1hr+ match elo range and I think everyone I matched against is smart enough to just not draft any end goals

11

augustln5 days ago

unless it's enter the end or get chorus fruit type of draft

plushie5 days ago

Yeah I don’t know if it already works like this or if there is a plan for it but I feel choices should be from different categories, but that’s a different discussion

Catapulfy5 days ago

not really tho both of them gives u the chunk then u find the spot in the chunk to dig down

2

Catapulfy5 days ago

both would essentially be faster versions of things that you can find in vanilla minrcraft just slower

Catapulfy5 days ago

i think just having this argument proves that its probably gonna create more divide between ppl

pinkpuff5 days ago

My input as a new player - ninjabrain bot feels way more accessible to learn than axis, and the bonus of i know itll actually hit if i need to dig down. Its way more punishing in this version to miss from a mismeasure and thats more likely with no nbb. If its banned then youre just gapped on person whos better at axis or got luckier, nbb feels like its slightly more level playing field. Obviously its got its own hiccups too but because nbb is the prevailing tech in the biggest category, its a lot easier to get help on accuracy for it. If its banned it almost guarantees never wanting to go for end goals, and just slows the entire process down in an already very long gamemode. (If its not called axis in this version sorry but, you get my point)

7

Tacomonster5 days ago

this is the main reason why I believe end goals should be removed, other late game goals can exist without having the setup and skill inbalance

31

pinkpuff5 days ago

Now this im into, and then nbb doesnt matter at all

Kopke5 days ago(edited)

to be realistic, end goals are irrelevant until everything else is completed anyways. fun of lockout bingo is that you can complete tasks (mostly) in any order, which puts strategy in the game

Tacomonster5 days ago

yeah this is why im suprised so many people downvoted the #Remove end-related objectives thread, its a valid suggestion but i assume many people didnt understand its purpose

Tacomonster5 days ago

yeah this was another one of the points, they are very linear, lack suspense, and are harder to overlap with other goals

Tacomonster5 days ago

(the blaze rod part mainly)

inoutoftherain5 days ago

i'd agree in principle but how would you ever enforce it, like the gameplay doesn't even need to be recorded

inoutoftherain5 days ago

like it'd just be such an "easy" way to cheat that it'd end up being a constant thing to be playing cheaters

julie5 days ago

disable f3+c

inoutoftherain5 days ago

i feel like that goes too far

maskers5 days ago

you can do it by slightly changing f3+c format to stop people from using it without knowing its banned

11

inoutoftherain5 days ago

nobody wants to be lost all the time or unable to find a buried fortress or whatever

inoutoftherain5 days ago

if that's possible that might work

inoutoftherain5 days ago

oh you said f3+c not f3 i'm stupid

inoutoftherain5 days ago

idk what the issues are with that like you can still use a calculator program to full triangulate off of the angle values even if it's not perfect, you're not hitting stronghold a lot in recent version anyway bc of depth so who cares if you miss by three chunks

Tacomonster5 days ago

+1 reason to remove end objectives entirely

inoutoftherain5 days ago

i'm totally against that

inoutoftherain5 days ago

the end has to remain a possibility

Tacomonster5 days ago

for what reason

inoutoftherain5 days ago

it's part of the game

inoutoftherain5 days ago

i don't want to play baby draftout even if 90% of games never go past the nether

maskers5 days ago

theres a lot of ways you can cheat anyway, i don't think another one should be an argument against banning ninjabrainbot

Tacomonster5 days ago

part of the game is getting netherite armor, looting end cities, doing difficult advancements, should those all be goals?

inoutoftherain5 days ago

like my personal belief is cheating is very very easy it will be everywhere, i want there to be a barrier to entry so to speak

inoutoftherain5 days ago

otherwise it's like people googling in geoguessr

Tacomonster5 days ago

the nether wil still be used regardless of end goals existing

inoutoftherain5 days ago

i think rng and time is a valid reason to exclude goals but end doesn't fit into either of those

Tacomonster5 days ago(edited)

+33 minutes

inoutoftherain5 days ago

ok?

Tacomonster5 days ago

it is a very time consuming goal

Tacomonster5 days ago

and blazes are very rng with strays and spawns

inoutoftherain5 days ago

it's not comparable to getting full netherite

inoutoftherain5 days ago

oh come on

inoutoftherain5 days ago

i don't think this is a productive conversation

Tacomonster5 days ago

what do you consider time consuming

Tacomonster5 days ago

like the point where its too much

inoutoftherain5 days ago

hours, not tens of minutes

inoutoftherain5 days ago

also this thread is about ninbot

Tacomonster5 days ago

that game was from people ranked in diamond, and they already played for 44 minutes and had resources

Tacomonster5 days ago

yeah ik

Tacomonster5 days ago

i assume the players didnt use ninbot cause of how long it took, not sure tho

inoutoftherain5 days ago

so maybe stop trying to debate if the end takes too long by comparing it to blaze rng and talk about ninbot?

Tacomonster5 days ago

you were calling it "baby draftout" i just wanted you to understand my perspective

inoutoftherain5 days ago

i don't think that's possible

Tacomonster5 days ago

i dont think full netherite would take an hour tbh

inoutoftherain5 days ago

i'm done thanks it's been great

Tacomonster5 days ago

sorry i got offtopic but i do think its related

justin5 days ago(edited)

I think this change is important. an f3+c flower patch calculator has already been developed, from that development it's clear to me that as we start over in history, people no longer see ninbot as the extreme limit and the unfortunate compromise it is but as the baseline for what is allowed, and so there will be continued attempts to expand from it. this is obviously undesirable from the standpoint of minimizing external tools and we can partially nip this in the bud by banning ninbot, which should hopefully set expectations about external tools better, at least to the point where these tools are not being created assuming they're acceptable enough to publicly release, if not assuming they're allowed.

Ducky5 days ago

I feel like tools that require you to input information from the game to get information about the world should be banned. This would ban ninjabrain bot, any seedcracking tools, and tools like the plains tulip finder in #Plains Biome Tulip Patches. Idk how enforceable that is but it would make players either learn the information or tank the wiki timeloss

Ducky5 days ago

yeah i was waiting for the previous conversation to conclude to bring this up

golem5 days ago

Why not just disable f3+c?

Tacomonster5 days ago

people use it for coords

Tacomonster5 days ago

if were allowing people to go on the wiki already, then the tulip website would be legal right?

Tacomonster5 days ago

whats stopping you from going to a stronghold calculator website that functions similarly to ninbot

Ducky5 days ago

the tulip document is would be legal, the tulip mod which shows spawns position when you f3+c should be illegal

Tacomonster5 days ago

what about the website with the map

Slackow5 days ago

You could remove the angle information from f3 + c

Tacomonster5 days ago

its kinda inbetween

Ducky5 days ago

see the part of my post that says idk how enforceable that is. idk what you could do about it

Tacomonster5 days ago

i like this idea

Slackow5 days ago

But I'm not sure I agree with the premise that this would make things easier for newcomers, I feel like measuring two eyes in nin bot is way easier than regular triangulation, especially to those unfamiliar with it

2

julie5 days ago

we're ALL manually inputting the angles into ninjabrain bot when f3 c gets disabled

Slackow5 days ago

Either way you either have to learn how to use nin bot or how to triangulate well

justin5 days ago(edited)

website calculators are still calculators, regulated as external tools that use game information, and are by default disallowed. there are actually a few that are allowed for historic reasons

Tacomonster5 days ago

theres always going to be some way to cheat for info and i dont think f3+c changes would entirely remove it either

Tacomonster5 days ago

imo the best solution is to minimize goals where its neccessary

julie5 days ago

"people can cheat" isn't a good argument

julie5 days ago

like of course they can

Tacomonster5 days ago

no i meant like manually inputting coordinates

julie5 days ago

but just make it hard to do

Slackow5 days ago

Is that tulip patch thing basically a static map?

julie5 days ago

yeah that's cheating ?

julie5 days ago

idgi

Tacomonster5 days ago

yeah its cheating and its not even that hard to do

julie5 days ago

like most people aren't gonna do that

julie5 days ago

because most people follow the rules

Tacomonster5 days ago

currently there are no rules

Tacomonster5 days ago

but if ninbot was banned then yea it would be best to remove f3+c info

justin5 days ago(edited)

it's much better to agree what is cheating as a community than to allow absurd stuff no one wants because of the possibility of cheating

maskers5 days ago(edited)

i feel like itd be the opposite? ninjabrainbot feels like the kind of thing where you do something wrong, get wrong coords and miss the digdown because you got told the stronghold is 100% somewhere it isn't (people messing it up is fairly common)
you wouldnt dig down without being sure (i.e. eye poins down) doing sheetless axis because axis isn't supposed to give you exact coordinates

Tacomonster5 days ago

ideally the optimal strategy is to travel through overworld while getting extra goals

Tacomonster5 days ago

but end goals are so late game that when youre attempting them its purely about speed

Slackow5 days ago

I think it would be way easier for people to learn how to use nin bot

If you're just doing 30 FOV with 2 eyes anyway

Slackow5 days ago

Boateye is more commonly where I see people get false 100%

maskers5 days ago

if you need to download an external program and learn how to measure (30 fov, correct lineup, lets ignore resizing, desync, pixel skipping), calibrate? i don't think thats really that easy

spicedspaghetti5 days ago

how hard is this to moderate

Slackow5 days ago

Compared to axis?

julie5 days ago

every time someone goes in public help in rankedcord and says their ninjabrain bot is missing 50% of the time it's because they aren't using boat eye

maskers5 days ago

, wrong mc version issues

maskers5 days ago

you can just do 4 sprint jumps or something

maskers5 days ago(edited)

throw 6 eyes
or even more, its not like you find the stronghold every game

Slackow5 days ago

Either way you have to learn about things like 8 8/0 0 and the 4 jump trick

julie5 days ago

"every time" "50%" what am i talking about

1

Slackow5 days ago(edited)

~~Pixel skipping is only a factor for boateye~~ Sorry I misread

maskers5 days ago(edited)

i guess the counterargument is that i think currently by far most people here come from mcsr so this doesn't really apply to them
is this true? idk

maskers5 days ago

people still complain with 30 fov measuring that its hard to line up the correct spot

Slackow5 days ago

I don't remember having issues with it really when I was also dropping sens

Slackow5 days ago

That's still something you'd have to get down if you were doing axis

inoutoftherain5 days ago

can confirm as somebody who's done it that axis is quite difficult, i think you'd see people using programmed calculators anyway with no f3+c, just manual input with less precision

inoutoftherain5 days ago

you'd probably have to remove all angle information from f3 to prevent this which puts you back in 1.7 days technically

Tacomonster5 days ago

yeah if ninbot is banned then axis would be the thing to learn, it doesn’t solve the issue of being easier to access

inoutoftherain5 days ago

for right now though i think a very simplified version of calculated travel posted in resources would help a lot of people

1

inoutoftherain5 days ago

like k4's video from a few months ago but even simpler

Tacomonster5 days ago(edited)

not sure about r0hkx original point, it’s unclear on which other methods and tools are allowed if ninbot is banned, and in draftout using it can be simpler than alternative methods

inoutoftherain5 days ago

you don't need all the really fancy stuff to save five minutes of overworld travel, you need it to save 15 or 30 seconds of measurement

Feinberg5 days ago

i can get behind this

Cobbet5 days ago

I shouldn't really have an opinion on this since i barely played ranked, but the "barrier to entry" shouldnt be an argument imo, downoading nnb and pressing f3+c isnt much harder than getting the mod installed in the first place
when you're at an elo where end goals and fast measuring are necessary, you're not a noob anymore

Feinberg5 days ago

youd be very surprised how hard ninbot setup is for a large majority of people

1

Feinberg5 days ago

its a completely new standalone application with a very weird gui / controls to use accurately

DriftSythe5 days ago

^ there’s a reason half of public help in ranked cord is related to nbb

eepyLeaf5 days ago

someone who tried to get into ranked here: it's a pain in the ass, it's absolutely not that simple

eepyLeaf5 days ago(edited)

however, toolscreen has made it a lot easier :D

Feinberg5 days ago

vs installing a mod, id wager a majority of minecraft players in the entire world have dropped a mod into a mods folder at some point

Cobbet5 days ago

Well in any case, in lower elo you dont need to use it, and when you're at a higher elo you can learn it if you havent already

Ducky5 days ago

as a new-ish player to mcsr, i put off playing for 6 months because of ninbot, then barely played after because i found it difficult to use

1

eepyLeaf5 days ago

are there stats on how often end goals are actually completed? I've never seen it happen once in gold hell lmao

Feinberg5 days ago

Forwarded

Compiled some stats regarding goals. Let me know if you find any issues or have any ideas for improvement.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Y_mAd6pLYvKwiVxwl63_KDsszGQf8hJSljQSLhtzSzI/edit?gid=1336830448#gid=1336830448

Draftout Stats

Feinberg5 days ago

this is somewhat updated

Cobbet5 days ago

that's a good idea actually, look into that when the next major updates happen and make an informed decision

eepyLeaf5 days ago

this is awesome thanks

julie5 days ago

and it randomly doesn't open and requires you to run a random exe to fix!

Tacomonster5 days ago

yeah the issue with end goals you usually only attempt them when they’re the only remaining goals (or a safe win but it’s boring) cause it’s such a big time sink and doesn’t help with many other goals

eepyLeaf5 days ago

yeah so im really curious if the fix is... adding more. or at least some that can overlap with beating the game/getting to the end

Tacomonster5 days ago(edited)

completions:
enter end 94
dragon egg 56
die to void 40
end rod 26
chorus fruit 25

eepyLeaf5 days ago

i doubt it but

eepyLeaf5 days ago

food for thought

Tacomonster5 days ago

yeah I know some people support this, but unless more late game is a primary focus I can see a lot of people never picking them unless they’re forced to

FoggyCurve5 days ago

Could i add that eye spy (which this conversation is more directly tied to) is 180 completions

Tacomonster5 days ago

yeah that one is a bit better cause you can go for it without the blaze rods needed to fill portal

eepyLeaf5 days ago

and rowl literally just made a post about how this isn't about speedrunning, but if they add 5/10/15 more endgame goals it very much becomes about speedrunning

Tacomonster5 days ago(edited)

i mean there’s always the option of splitting draftout into shorter and longer games, longer ones having more difficult end game goals

eepyLeaf5 days ago

it's a weird balance for sure

Tacomonster5 days ago

he also said on the remove end goals post that he wants to keep it lol

Tacomonster5 days ago

if the game isn’t about speedrunning then why is there 3 goals about killing ender dragon lol

1

eepyLeaf5 days ago

having a couple is totally fine, but there is a point where there can be too many

eepyLeaf5 days ago

drafting, fixes a lot of his, just don't pick them

eepyLeaf5 days ago

but sometimes you don't get a choice or your opp wants to

Cobbet5 days ago

I mean you're still trying to complete goals as fast as you can, that's the whole point of speedrunning, so i dont see the need to ban nnb

kW1st5 days ago

I think ban nb will make more cheaters

Tacomonster5 days ago

yeah the issue is people can pick to their strengths, feinberg said on stream he should always be picking end game goals as a top speedrunner, but felt it was boring

Feinberg5 days ago

theres 390 goals that arentl

Feinberg5 days ago

this argument is so stupid bro

eepyLeaf5 days ago(edited)

I don't think that should be a consideration

Feinberg5 days ago

u can have one singular goal on a board thats related to killing the ender dragon

Feinberg5 days ago

sure if literally all 3 of them show up maybe thats a problem and should be filtered for in the draft

Feinberg5 days ago

but i can make the same random argument about warden or trial chambers or goat horn or literally anything else

kW1st5 days ago

like screenreader calc or contaria calc or friend sitting with you and do math

Feinberg5 days ago

ohhh i dont like when the game is about x so lets not have the THREE goals about x

julie5 days ago

disable angles in f3 and f3+c

kW1st5 days ago

thats shit

Feinberg5 days ago

and fwiw i only think its boring because i want to catch mongey in elo and i dont physically have the playtime to do so. so i dont want to play long games

1

Cobbet5 days ago

well then you cant triangulate at all bruh

Feinberg5 days ago

but i do enjoy speedrunning the game and do enjoy picking and playing those goals

kW1st5 days ago

how to do basic math if you know how to do it tho

kW1st5 days ago

like axis travel or smt

julie5 days ago

idk how else do you solve this

kW1st5 days ago

true

julie5 days ago

outside of just trusting people don't cheat

Tacomonster5 days ago

there’s quite a few people who also avoid end goals for the same reason, longer games are usually less fun

Nojusjo/champ5 days ago

no ninbot is fully fair u only waste an extra like 3 mins doing educated

eepyLeaf5 days ago

i mean cheaters will just always exist, i don't know if that should be a consideration

Cobbet5 days ago

the most sensible thing to do would be to see if people using nnb have a significant winrate gap to people of the same elo who don't, you can detect f3+c and automate this process

Tacomonster5 days ago

there’s gonna be some data bias with people not using it for nnb

julie5 days ago

truncate angles in f3+c and f3 to 0 decimal places

1

Cobbet5 days ago

f3+c pressed in 5 seconds after throwing an eye
we're not limited by vanilla a LOT of data is possible to gather

Tacomonster5 days ago

true yeah

Tacomonster5 days ago

you’d still need a large sample size which would take a while with how rarely end goals are completed

eepyLeaf5 days ago

it would be strange data because they could still lose even if they got to the end goals first

zom5 days ago

I've never speedran the game before so I don't have an opinion on how useful ninbot is for Draftout, but in general it becomes incredibly difficult to justify banning any other external tools as soon as one gets allowed. I don't know where the line is drawn for MCSR, but I can certainly imagine there being a much wider variety of tools that would impart a serious competitive advantage in Draftout as compared to MCSR just from the nature of how they're played

Feinberg5 days ago

theres still just not even a problem with the end goals i dont know why they need to be removed

augustln5 days ago

end goals aren't even too hard because pearl rates are unreasonably high in Draftout

Feinberg5 days ago

its 3 goals out of legit 400

eepyLeaf5 days ago

they absolutely shouldn't i think they are super fun

Feinberg5 days ago

lingering pot and end crystal both have overlap with non end resources

eepyLeaf5 days ago

it's fun trying to think about going for one when you're 70 mins into a gold 1 game LMAO

Feinberg5 days ago

and their overlaps are just faster than going to the end

eepyLeaf5 days ago

that lingering dread of the endgame goal on the board and the game slowly coming down to it is so good, i do not think those goals should be removed in the slightest

augustln5 days ago

maybe there should just be no situation where you have to pick between two end goals

Cobbet5 days ago

more goals = more better why would you remove an entire dimension

augustln5 days ago

then if you don't wanna go to the end you just don't pick it

Kavinan5 days ago

quick question does the mine a diamond ore goal can be done with deepslate ore ?

2

eepyLeaf5 days ago

agreed :D

Tacomonster5 days ago(edited)

the reasons to remove end goals are:
- extending games which people want to stay short
- less overlap potential and less suspense
- people don’t want to learn speedrunning / set up nnb
- bias to speedrunners

1

ys855 days ago

yes

2

Ethan :35 days ago

learning ninjabrain bot took me like 5 minutes

no way we should ban this

Kavinan5 days ago

just realise i'm not in the right channel mb

5

julie5 days ago

took you

julie5 days ago

it takes other people a lot longer

julie5 days ago

especially when there's issues

julie5 days ago

such as turkish language making it not able to launch

julie5 days ago

or jars not running correctly

Ethan :35 days ago

....ah yeah that's an issue

Ethan :35 days ago

i used a youtube guide

Ethan :35 days ago

the set up isn't terribly complicated iirc

julie5 days ago

not everyone has the same experience as u

eepyLeaf5 days ago

it's taken me a couple hours and i still don't have it right so /shrug

Tacomonster5 days ago

more goals isn’t always better, the goals should stay interesting and have unique strategy

Ethan :35 days ago

I also have been to the stronghold a total of 0 times tbf

augustln5 days ago

I think that's the beauty of Draftout that you don't need to setup external tools to be competitive

7

augustln5 days ago

compared to Ranked at least

ys855 days ago

when starting speedrunning there's an expectation there will be weird tech and external programs involved, i think since draftout is not a speedrunning game theres no reason to allow external tools

augustln5 days ago

I'd ban Toolscreen and similar stuff too

augustln5 days ago

because people who have external tools also can get zoom

julie5 days ago

maybe neuter toolscreen to keep cosmetic features

julie5 days ago

like the rainbow timer

julie5 days ago

rainbow timer is awesome

augustln5 days ago

it has that?

augustln5 days ago

that's cool

augustln5 days ago

sadly I can't use it

julie5 days ago

and also like rebinding and fps limiter

ys855 days ago

yeah rebinding is absolutely fine

ys855 days ago

also i dont feel like resizing is That much of an advantage

ys855 days ago

that being said i did use wide macro to see more terrain off spawn

julie5 days ago

i feel like eyezoom is the most advantage

julie5 days ago

maybe ban resizing windows larger than monitor

ys855 days ago

thats so specific though

julie5 days ago

resizing larger than monitor is very cheaty and nonvanilla in my eyes

augustln5 days ago(edited)

I'd honestly ban everything that is not provided by either Minecraft or Draftout itself

julie5 days ago

well jts just effectively banning eyezoom macro

Elag4225 days ago

67th upvote

111

julie5 days ago

rlly funny

ys855 days ago

even 500% brighness?

julie5 days ago

src rules only allow one resize to larger than monitor size just to allow eyezoom

augustln5 days ago

everyone has no fog and you don't need anything external so all players are equal

augustln5 days ago

Draftout kinda gives it (I'd guess it will be added into official modpack) and it's not external, these are my criteria why it should stay

ys855 days ago

i didnt even know theres an official modpack. then its completely fine

ys855 days ago(edited)

i definitely agree that people should just download modpack and start playing, nothing else needed

augustln5 days ago

not yet

augustln5 days ago(edited)

I think it's confirmed to be tho

ys855 days ago

thats really good

blanket addict5 days ago

kinda off topic sidenote, the amount of extra completions the more obvious end goals get is kinda crazy

blanket addict5 days ago(edited)

dragon egg is like 5% faster than chorus fruit/end rod and it has more completions than both combined

blanket addict5 days ago

die to void takes 10 seconds after entering the end and it has not even half as many completions

blanket addict5 days ago(edited)

idk if it's a drafting thing or what (edit: looked at the stats, the completion rate of end rod/chorus fruit are like 60% of dragon egg, and die to void is like 60% of enter end)

inoutoftherain5 days ago

anybody can get zoom, reduce fov to minimum

augustln5 days ago

it's less efficient than using eyezoom

augustln5 days ago(edited)

both from the point of time and fov

augustln5 days ago

manually adjusting settings vs. one button and 30 FOV vs. whatever eyezoom gives

inoutoftherain5 days ago

it's not a meaningful difference

augustln5 days ago

fair enough

plushie5 days ago

Also I agree with the barrier of entry argument; I feel people who are most familiar with speedrunning may have gotten desensitized after a while but playing with macros, external tools that reads your clipboard etc is so wildly different from the usual Minecraft gameplay that I can definitely see it being discouraging for some players, especially considering draftout plays a lot more like playing the game “normally”. There is also a problem with expectations. Allowing external tools sets an expectation of “you must be this prepared to play”, when actually like augustln said the beauty of draftout is everyone can just have fun without tons of preparation.

1

pinkpuff5 days ago

I would agree with this except the alternative to nbb is a different strat thats not quite as good but still uses an external sheet

Feinberg5 days ago

sheetless is better and more accurate than axis

Feinberg5 days ago

4 jump is marginally slower

Feinberg5 days ago

youre never eye spying in this version cause of caves and deepslate so being 50 vs 100 blocks off on surface means basically nothing

pinkpuff5 days ago

https://tenor.com/view/mark-cuban-shark-tank-notes-taking-notes-remember-gif-15073512

Feinberg5 days ago

ideally axis wouldnt be allowed either but idk how much external tools they want to ban

Feinberg5 days ago

actually maybe its fine since its not taking game information in, you have to read the sheet

Feinberg5 days ago

like reading wiki midgame is fine

r0hkxOP5 days ago(edited)

i don't think external sheets for triangulation should be allowed if ninbot itself isn't

pinkpuff5 days ago

Like just looking at a sheet with info?

r0hkxOP5 days ago

sorry edited

1

Tacomonster5 days ago

would you allow the tulip map?

r0hkxOP5 days ago

yeah this shouldn't be allowed either for the same reason i don't think

spicedspaghetti5 days ago

this is like impossible to detect tho no?

Tacomonster5 days ago(edited)

would you allow this google doc?

Plains Biome Tulip Patches

Plains Biome Tulip Patches Explanation Tulips, useful for dye and crafting suspicious stew with the weakness effect, can generally be found in flower forests. In some seeds those aren’t easily available near spawn, making them hard to acquire. Rarely, patches of them will spawn in plains biome...

Tacomonster5 days ago

doesnt use f3+c

r0hkxOP5 days ago

that i would think should be allowed

r0hkxOP5 days ago

the difference for me is what the "inputs" are

pinkpuff5 days ago

that feels very nitpicky for something that accomplishes nearly the same outcome tbh

r0hkxOP5 days ago

if you're entering your exact coordinates, its basically a calculator, whether or not its actually doing the calculations or using a lookup table

Tacomonster5 days ago

yeah maybe we can have some legalized list of websites you can use

r0hkxOP5 days ago

if you have a static sheet, something that would be a reasonable amount of information to memorize, then it should be allowed

r0hkxOP5 days ago

general resources like the minecraft wiki should practically stay allowed as well i think

r0hkxOP5 days ago

i don't think just having a allowed list of external tools or resources is a good idea given how that's been working for speedrunning. i think having concrete criteria for what should or shouldn't be allowed comes first, and then if really needed, those criteria can be applied on a case by case basis to form an allowed/disallowed tool/resource list

pinkpuff5 days ago

idk maybe im just a nerd but i think the coolest part of speedrunning is general in any game is the tools that get developed, hindering them in a speedrunning specific gamemode just feels very restrictive for the only purpose of feeling like people should memorize it instead.

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

this isnt speedrunning

pinkpuff5 days ago

it literally is

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

telling people "download this fun gamemode and play some matches!" and also telling them "oh and btw you need these 5 calculator tools open at all times while playing" is just dumb

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

either its part of the game or its not

SOOT5 days ago

I'm open to changing my mind on this suggestion which is why I havent downvoted yet, but for the barrier to entry I dont think banning nbb makes it any better, because either way you're going to be gapped to the sh by someone who either knows how to use nbb or knows sh estimation strategies, neither of which are that accessible, am I wrong here, if so please tell me the difference it makes for barrier to entry

IdealTV5 days ago

i mean any argument that its good because first time players dont have to worry about downloading ninjabrain bot is a horrible argument for this reason.

either youre making the game accessible or not, id like to see everyones thoughts otherwise

IdealTV5 days ago

i purely agree with this for the fact that nbb is ridiculous and gets out of hand very quickly

DriftSythe5 days ago

feels better you know you got gapped because of someone's skill than someone spending an extra hour setting up an application to tell them the exact coordinates for them

IdealTV5 days ago

how long until people make aa mode for draftout

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

also its entirely possible theres tons of unknown tools that could get created in the future

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

like i doubt people have explored everything the f3 menu can do in this version

SOOT5 days ago

doesnt answer my question

Feinberg5 days ago

theres always a subjective line, the people here are arguing to move the line further into player skill and less into tool skill

Feinberg5 days ago

we already ban lots of game features

Feinberg5 days ago

like peaceful mode, /seed, datapcks

Feinberg5 days ago

things that seem obvious to ban to a large majority of people

Feinberg5 days ago

but if we truly wanted to 'push the game' we would allow all that + more

Feinberg5 days ago

this discussion is about if ninbot should be allowed as a tool vs wanting the skill to fall on the player

DriftSythe5 days ago

the difference is that one is skill and one is a tool?

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

also more accessible to more players = larger playerbase = more resources to develop the game and shorter queuetime

SOOT5 days ago

my question was how does this change ease of access

SOOT5 days ago

neither are easy to pick up

CCbrito5 days ago

I think the changes should be made to make the game more enjoyable, and making everyone download and set up an external tool just to be able to be slightly faster on a few goals might be not the experience everyone wants

Feinberg5 days ago

youre learning a strategy either way, one just requires an hour of tool setup and one requires you to join a creative world

Feinberg5 days ago

you could argue that ninbot is easier since once you have it all setup you dont need to understand how literally anything works, but i would counter by saying the built in game triangulation is very easily understood as well

DriftSythe5 days ago

less likely to be for new players to be offput from playing a game because you see that there are strategies you need to learn than tools you need to download

Feinberg5 days ago

follow eye, dig when it goes down

DriftSythe5 days ago(edited)

^ even if people don't learn complex triangulation at a lower level this is still effective

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

if youre not that good at the game getting eyes from a bastion is gonna be way harder and slower than the nav anyway

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

treasure has like 50 brutes for some reason

SOOT5 days ago

you could say the same thing about nbb, if ppl dont use nbb at a lower level they could still follow eye and dig down, the only meaningful change I see from banning nbb is that a bot that anyone can use is replaced with something that has more skill expression which there is a better argument for imo

IdealTV5 days ago

i really still do not get why the conversation is about bad players

Slackow5 days ago

I think new players outside of speedrunning would be daunted by the task of beating the game in a match regardless, so I'm not sure it's a very strong argument

IdealTV5 days ago

it should be more about which is more competitively sound at the top level, as that is the direction of the gamemode apparently

1

pinkpuff5 days ago

not necessarily arguring for nbb here but this feels like a weak argument when we're already playing a mod that needs 3 other support mods and a separate launcher.

pinkpuff5 days ago

And things like that tulip tool. Its just a website

Feinberg5 days ago

you dont need a separate launcher and players use mods so much more commonly than an external java application

Feinberg5 days ago

you can run mods on one monitor, if you have one monitor ninbot is much harder to use (especially without toolscreen!)

DriftSythe5 days ago

mods are waaay more commonplace than an external application that you need to setup

Feinberg5 days ago

mod argument is dumb imo because they have been a game standard for 10+ years

3

Feinberg5 days ago

ninbot is a speedrunner only tool

Feinberg5 days ago

id wager a vast majority of the playerbase has downloaded optifine or sodium or fullbright or any other casual mod

Feinberg5 days ago

removes player skill in identifying their location in the world and lining their travel up with a near tulip patch

Slackow5 days ago

So does making ninjabrain bot into a mod with an in game overlay suddenly make it better?

Feinberg5 days ago

someone can have zero knowledge of the strat and have the same outputted skill as someone who knows all the coordinates and how the strategy actually works within the world

DriftSythe5 days ago

it makes it better but I would still think it should be disallowed

Feinberg5 days ago

yes it would a fair amount. if it was built into the game it would be much better for new players

IdealTV5 days ago

so out of interest thoughts on use of jingle and planifolia?

Feinberg5 days ago

however I think this was a really good point

DriftSythe5 days ago

it just makes the accessibility part of it a lot better

Feinberg5 days ago

they obviously care about competitiveness the most

DriftSythe5 days ago

planifolia is a mod no?

IdealTV5 days ago

yeah, but its for speedrunners only

IdealTV5 days ago

well

Feinberg5 days ago

and at a top level ninbot just shouldnt be allowed because it removed a skill that top players can do themselves with good accuracy

IdealTV5 days ago

for speedrunners

DriftSythe5 days ago

that doesn't really matter

Feinberg5 days ago

jingle is outdated, toolscreen i think shouldnt be a thing for draftout

IdealTV5 days ago

but im challenging the point that "speedrunner tools" should be removed

DriftSythe5 days ago(edited)

like if I told someone who has never speedran in their life before download this mod to do x they would be able to do it really easily

DriftSythe5 days ago

compared to download this application and do all this setup and use it like this to make it work properly

Feinberg5 days ago

if draftout wants to become a minecraft friendly game and not just a speedrunner friendly game, most external speedrunner centric tools should be disallowed

3

DriftSythe5 days ago

mods are a lot less external than other tools

Feinberg5 days ago(edited)

it not only raises the skill ceiling of the top level, it also makes setup for new players much easier

Feinberg5 days ago

imo theres zero downside

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

the only downside is that its really easy to cheat

6dwa5 days ago

yes imo too it only got downsides to ban ninja brain

1

DriftSythe5 days ago

yea I don't really see a strong argument for keeping nbb

6dwa5 days ago

how?

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

uh... use ninjabrain anyway?

SOOT5 days ago

spreadsheets where you input your angle and it spits out a coordinate

DriftSythe5 days ago

you could just remove angle information from the f3+c etc

6dwa5 days ago

well dont be a wirdo and just dont break rules

IdealTV5 days ago(edited)

rowl made the announcement today they are neglecting new/bad players in favour of competitiveness at the top level, so removal of nbb increases the amount of skill expression in a game and adds a level of differentiation from ranked, as they also claimed they dont want this game to be viewed as a speedrun. i dont think there are arguments to this point

6dwa5 days ago

yea

zom5 days ago

it being easy to break a rule is surely not a reason for the rule to not exist in the first place

2

Slackow5 days ago

That wouldn't 100% solve it but it would nip most of it in the bud

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

i assume removing angle information from the f3 screen isnt an option

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

since that could be used to manually triangulate

DriftSythe5 days ago(edited)

yea obviously people will always find ways to cheat and get around things but that's like the most easy and widespread way to stop nbb usage as far as I can see

Slackow5 days ago

You could manually include the angle and copy the text for example

CCbrito5 days ago

removing it from f3 + c is tho

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

you dont need f3+c to use a calculator

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

you can just read the angle

Slackow5 days ago

Unless you want to remove the angle from f3 as well, but I don't really like that

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

its less accurate but itd still work

DriftSythe5 days ago

yea removing the angle from f3+c just makes it so like people don't use it not knowing it's disallowed or something

Slackow5 days ago

True

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago(edited)

but yeah it should for sure be banned

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

especially when its only relevant in like 1/50 matches anyway

CCbrito5 days ago

it is harder to cheat that way as well I guess

DriftSythe5 days ago

like even if you removed f3 completely someone could just crack the seed and use chunkbase or something there will always be cheaters

Slackow5 days ago

I honestly don't like the end based goals in general because there's little to no overlap while doing them and they take a disproportionate amount of time, I'd be on board with removing them entirely, but I understand if people would want to keep them for higher levels

pinkpuff5 days ago

Changing them to be achieved in multiple ways i think is the most accessible thing that can be done

SOOT5 days ago

One of the reasons nbb was unbanned for src is because there are so many loopholes and workaround that competitive integrity couldn't really be verified, how can we be sure the same thing wont happen in draftout

DriftSythe5 days ago

imo it would be good if the frequency was decreased or some other change similar to that, I really don't like just removing them altogether because like you're just removing an entire dimension from the game even if it's not used as commonly in draftout

Slackow5 days ago

The advantage of it in draftout is a lot lower, thanks to the fact that you can't reliably blind into sh

DriftSythe5 days ago

^

IdealTV5 days ago

this is entirely off base, but how is there no overlap in doing end based goals? youre overlapping things in the nether the entire game / exploration when finding the stronghold in this case of nbb removal. i really dont understand what you mean

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

i think if people want to cheat having a small advantage every 40th match isnt the first thing theyd try

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

like currently people who cheat just instawin lol

pinkpuff5 days ago

Honestly if its not even reliable then im surprised it matters so much. Its just one of many options atp

DriftSythe5 days ago

yea it doesn't make sense for people to specifically cheat for finding the stronghold

SOOT5 days ago

the advantage is you can be as good as someone who has spent a long time practicing triangulation without having done any of that

DriftSythe5 days ago

like there are just better ways to cheat if you really want to cheat and win

Slackow5 days ago

There's not much you can overlap while you're looting the bastion or doing the blaze spawner

SOOT5 days ago

the difference is that cheating with a spreadsheet would be essentially undectable

Tacomonster5 days ago

#Remove end-related objectives this was a topic that many people disagreed with, check out this thread

DriftSythe5 days ago

cheating with xray is effectively undetectable if you hide it well

SOOT5 days ago

nether goals while traveling between them, crafting goals from piglin trades, etc

IdealTV5 days ago

again, cheating doesnt matter because at the top level youre publishing your matches and participating in tournaments where people can see youre not cheating. fully doesnt matter in the case of draftout

DriftSythe5 days ago

cracking the seed and running to a good structure or biomoe is basically undetectable

Tacomonster5 days ago(edited)

but i agree, no end goals is simplier and avoids the confusion, along with being more interesting

1

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

break spawner, brew x potion, get string for 8 leads, get ender chest

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

get x unique hostile mob kills

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

theres a few

Slackow5 days ago

Yeah I saw that, but I felt like if the argument is about appealing to newcomers or those outside of MCSR, having the goals at all is contributing to that

IdealTV5 days ago

?

Slackow5 days ago

I don't think they belong there in lower levels

DriftSythe5 days ago

you can also just not draft them

DriftSythe5 days ago

other than the one time I had to choose between fall into void and dragon egg

Slackow5 days ago

True, except in casual

CCbrito5 days ago

casual will be fixed soon anyway

Tacomonster5 days ago

i hate this arguement of not drafting or not showing up much, if it happens at all, theres a chance you need to go for it, and it can lose you the game if you dont have the practice

SOOT5 days ago

spreadsheet is also undetable through logs, seedcracking might end up as a legitimate issue if someone ever recreates the tool the one guy made to crack one of couriway's seeds midrun

Tacomonster5 days ago

imo all goals should be interesting enough to be picked and have multiple strategies to obtain them

1

CCbrito5 days ago

I think that's subjective and that's why you get the option to pick

Tacomonster5 days ago

i think bastion is fine, the materials is fine and pearls help with movement. fortress is really what slows it down, the goals in forts are usually quick or 1-2 rods (potions), but needing enough for measuring and filling portal takes a while

Slackow5 days ago

Yeah I think I agree with that

DriftSythe5 days ago

you could also have some external tool that shows you the recipes/items for each thing on the board that would be undetectable, there are so many ways to cheat you shouldn't not ban something just because there's a way to bypass it

plushie5 days ago

Because close forts are guaranteed I don’t really see it as a problem

zom5 days ago

I suppose the difference is that we aren't necessarily trying to verify individual games. We also can't verify that someone hasn't used a seed cracker / map etc. There are so many more ways for someone to cheat in draftout, we certainly can't account for them all. We shouldn't allow something just because we can't detect its' use

3

DriftSythe5 days ago

^

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

you could probably mod vanilla so the seeds cant be cracked as well

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

like just use 10x longer seeds bam

blanket addict5 days ago

it's not really the fort it's more like, (in some games) time spent navigating to otherwise unneeded bastion/fort, then getting rods as you say + travelling to and naving stronghold + beating the dragon for the goals that need that

blanket addict5 days ago(edited)

the enter end goals are notably less bad than the kill dragon goals I think but all are on the longer side even at the top level

blanket addict5 days ago

enter end goals get a lot less bad when stuff does overlap with them

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

bastion is pretty useful for string though but yeah more goals related to getting stuff obtainable at a bastion would be better

Tacomonster5 days ago

every single end goal has a lower than 25% pick rate (enter end is 24.9% lol)

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

for example for the ender chest goal you can either mine the obsidian yourself or trade for it

blanket addict5 days ago

yeah bastions are good but when there was never a reason to visit a bastion end goals are a nightmare

Tacomonster5 days ago

yeah fort and travel

Tacomonster5 days ago

dragon kill can take some time too

blanket addict5 days ago

probably most enter end games were games where someone did a bastion earlier

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

i think this discourse is too easy we need to start the discourse on if pearl trades should be vanilla rates

1

pinkpuff5 days ago

They should be even lower , rrtvrn to tower strats as god intended

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

it would be funny if farming endermen in deserts and warped forests was viable lol

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

if piglin pearl rates are boosted why arent endermen pearl rates #foodforthought

SOOT5 days ago

Maybe it’s because I only have 1 monitor but I really don’t want to look at the axis spreadsheet every time I triangulate so if this happens I’m learning sheetless

zom5 days ago

I don't see why this isn't a valid argument? unless it's an end vs end draft, either you or your opponent believed that the end goal was a better choice (for comp of course, not casual). if you lose the game from your opponent choosing it, then they clearly chose correctly and vice versa. you could also lose the game if you don't have practice in finding a trial chamber. the point is that you can practice to get better at it, it's a question of whether you personally think it's worth your time to do so, over learning something else. that doesn't mean the option shouldn't be there at all. the whole point of the draft is to pick goals that play to your strengths

6

Tacomonster5 days ago(edited)

i think people were arguing that you can just not pick it and ignore it, i 100% agree you need to learn how to complete the end goals if they exist

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

Yea i mean I generally try to draft goals i know the strats for since its more likely i get those

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

Stuff like mob kabob is free if your opponent isnt in the know

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago(edited)

So some players being good at end stuff or bastion stuff and trying to get those goals to win just makes sense, thats why its a draft

Tacomonster5 days ago

yeah if youre good at end game its always optimal to pick it, its just that it can extend games and is less likely to make the difference in winning

Tacomonster5 days ago

which is why i think people tend to avoid picking them

Slackow5 days ago

Should completing a full beacon be a challenge? It's fine as long as no one picks it

DriftSythe5 days ago

not comparable

DriftSythe5 days ago

full beacon takes a lot longer and the proportion of people that would pick it are far lower than for end goals

Tacomonster5 days ago

netherite armor

DriftSythe5 days ago(edited)

you're most likely not even going to even be able to do full beacon with in the 60 minute time limit

Tacomonster5 days ago

this is the same with most players even at a higher elo

Tacomonster5 days ago

for end goals

Slackow5 days ago

I wanted to use an example of something that no one would want to pick on purpose

DriftSythe5 days ago

people still pick end goals tho

pinkpuff5 days ago

Yo not trying to be a buzzkill but this discussion is happening in the wrong thread lowkey

Uniquepotatoes5 days ago

im sure the top 100 players can get enter end sub hour

DriftSythe5 days ago

true

Tacomonster5 days ago

#Remove end-related objectives move it!

Slackow5 days ago

Yeah it's a bit more of a general discussion I guess but whether or not it's relevant to end goals is still pretty relevant

r0hkxOP5 days ago

imo end goals don't really change much if ninbot is allowed or not

DriftSythe5 days ago

^

DriftSythe5 days ago

maybe the time to complete them is like marginally slower

r0hkxOP5 days ago

end goals definitely get a bit slower to complete but since you're not eye spying its not a big difference

pinkpuff5 days ago

wait does this mean you arent eye spying with nbb or with axis vs sheetless

r0hkxOP5 days ago

with ninbot, it is very unlikely to eye spy in this version

pinkpuff5 days ago

wait then like. Why does it even matter

r0hkxOP5 days ago

eye spying is a major benefit to ninbot in 1.16, but since that benefit doesn't really exist in this version, ninbot doesn't really give much of an advantage

r0hkxOP5 days ago(edited)

ninbot itself doesn't matter that much for draftout, banning it is more about the precedent for other things

pinkpuff5 days ago

So more like f3+c should be banned?

pinkpuff5 days ago

Or disabled

r0hkxOP5 days ago

if thats really necessary then maybe, but ideally people would just follow the rules and not cheat

blanket addict5 days ago

does f3+c have any other uses

r0hkxOP5 days ago

in general, tools that read f3+c shouldn't be allowed at all though

DriftSythe5 days ago

marking coords

r0hkxOP5 days ago

f3+c just to get in your clipboard history or to copy into a text file to remember coords should be fine though

pinkpuff5 days ago

If there's no meaningful advantage to use nbb in the first place, and currently nothing else to point to as something very exploitive , this whole argument seems like a waste of time or am i crazy.
Atp i dont personally care if it goes or stays but now this makes even less sense to me why it matters

pinkpuff5 days ago

Planning for something that doesnt exist yet

r0hkxOP5 days ago(edited)

there still is an advantage, just not as much of an advantage as there is in 1.16 speedruns

r0hkxOP5 days ago

and, if ninbot is allowed, people will assume any similar tools will also be allowed (such as the tulip tool)

pinkpuff5 days ago

Id be curious what other developments there are as time goes on to see. Im sure there could be something that feels very exploitive but the tulip tool feels so nothingburger to me and thats the only other thing to point to now, especially if the doc with the 5 nearby tulip locations is still usable.

pinkpuff5 days ago

And theres so much in draftout its hard to account for it all now, but oh well

DriftSythe5 days ago

the whole point is to make tools like these so more don’t pop up in the future

DriftSythe5 days ago

it’s a lot harder to get rid of something after it’s become widespread than making it so it doesn’t happen in the first place

pinkpuff5 days ago

I understand I think my point is we have no way to predict whats going to be developed as time goes on

DriftSythe5 days ago

yea so we might as well make sure nothing does get developed in the first place by setting guidelines?

DriftSythe5 days ago

especially when there’s no major downsides that I’ve seen to it

pinkpuff5 days ago

All we have so far is no inputting f3+c. Im sure more will come from other things, but who knows

r0hkxOP5 days ago

yeah anything resembling aatool shouldn't be allowed

kW1st5 days ago

if we save angles in f3 but ban f3+c its SO EASY TO CHEAT

kW1st5 days ago

how dou you know that there is nobody in discord who doing math or screanreadder tool or just basic handcalc

kW1st5 days ago

if you off angle in f3 it is not a minecraft enymore you know what i mean

kW1st5 days ago

like

kW1st5 days ago

we will do no f3 calcs or what

kW1st5 days ago

Feinberg5 days ago

.

Feinberg5 days ago

theres already 100 ways to cheat and not have it be detectable

Feinberg5 days ago

not good reasoning to try and prevent something

7rowl5 days ago

rules dont have to be 100% enforceable. if that was the requirement, there would never be any rules, because no rule is 100% enforceable. if somebody is found out to break the rule, they will be severely punished. there can be multitude of measures developed to prevent that but it will still happen regardless

7rowl5 days ago

if a player is breaking a rule under the assumption that they won't be found out and punished, that is the risk they are taking. in this specific scenario, for a very little benefit and not a guaranteed one

kW1st5 days ago

r0hkxOP5 days ago

kW1st5 days ago

so axis are going to be meta again

kW1st5 days ago

back in 2021

kW1st5 days ago

I'd like to play using it

kW1st5 days ago

Speedrunners looks smarter when doing math

diggitydingdong5 days ago

Two questions, ooc, because I don't think the facts were clear to me in the above conversation:
1. Is the only difference between ninbot vs no ninbot the fact that you know exact coords? i.e. you can't eye spy (at least reliably) in modern versions?
2. Given the above, are the only differences in this discussion vs the equivalent for 1.16 that (and I'm trying to state this neutrally):
a) ninbot saves you less time on average (because you likely will surface and then dig down)
b) ninbot has more random variation (more luck in portalling directly into stronghold), whereas noncalc methods the variation is usually due to skill in triangulation
c) needing to do this comes up much less frequently, even at top level (and you have some amount of agency in whether it's required)
d) allowing ninbot means the line for allowed external tool's becomes much more blurry (e.g. tulips thing) vs banning all tools you don't just read
e) banning ninbot and similar tools makes rule enforcement harder for the general player base (perhaps this & the above cancel each other out, hard either way)

The subtext I read is that it's actually not that much different from 1.16, and that therefore if the people advocating in this thread could go back to when ninbot was first introduced that would vote on banning it - and now is our chance to prevent this again (I don't necessarily disagree btw). Wondering how much of the disagreement here is due to disagreements about ninbot's legality in totality, rather than specifically draftout

I don't really have an opinion since I don't know enough. What I do know is I personally haven't bothered to learn even E raying or fortress finding on the newest version since I can get away without it, though I probably will

r0hkxOP5 days ago

this is mostly accurate yeah. ninbot doesn't make a big difference in actual gameplay, but i do think it being legal makes a big difference for draftout as a whole

1

aan5 days ago

Banning ninbot runs into the spreadsheet dilemma where you start asking what constitutes a calculator because with a large enough lookup table you can basically do anything

diggitydingdong5 days ago

even if you do allow it you have the same question on the other side of the line though i think

diggitydingdong5 days ago

so it's kind of moot

maskers5 days ago

a large enough spreadsheet would also be banned
i don't think a clear line for what's "large enough" is really necessary

maskers5 days ago(edited)

i would say that the main difference is the gamemode itself
current rules are based on any% rsg speedruns, where one of the main arguments iirc was that playing without ninjabrainbot isn't fun since your run dies in 90% of cases where you don't hit stronghold
draftout is instead a 1v1 format, both people are under the same condition and i wouldn't say banning ninjabrainbot makes the game less fun

blanket addict5 days ago

I like ninbot for ranked and I like it being banned in draftout

diggitydingdong5 days ago

yeah so a combination of a/b/c. but is a reason for banning it really that it's not that useful?

blanket addict5 days ago(edited)

calculators feel "legit" to me but draftout is more about game balance in general, and banning it basically just lowers the barrier to entry

r0hkxOP5 days ago

the point about enforcement isn't really relevant idt, there are so many easier and more impactful ways to cheat, and so many other rules that matter so much less that people are pretty good about following (im thinking of search craft rebinds but various glitches and stuff also apply here)

Bompkin5 days ago

I honestly don't care if its banned or not, it does make it annoying but if it stops making tools that actually impact the game more being allowed then it can be banned for the better of the game

Bompkin5 days ago

but then again nothing is stopping the team from making anything past ninbot that is "overpowered?? in a way" banned instead of making ninbot banned too

Bompkin5 days ago

but it sets a bad precedent so again either or doesnt matter

diggitydingdong5 days ago

i agree i think with d/e it's plainly obvious that the enforcement problem still is there no matter what you choose here so it's irrelevant

diggitydingdong5 days ago

and i should add i think its there to mostly the same degree, obv if one choice decreased cheating by like 3x then that would be better but i dont see that either way meaningfully improves things

James5 days ago

Because it's part of the game?

kW1st5 days ago

im using nb not only for finding sh but to mark smt like lavapool in over and etc and homeportal in nether

Bompkin5 days ago

^ same lol

✨Es✨4 days ago

idk if this has been said already, but if it gets banned, then i feel like "find sh" and anything end related (i.e. "obstain dragon egg") need to either be reworked or removed

1

✨Es✨4 days ago(edited)

but thats just my opinion

Feinberg4 days ago

why? because then theres skill in triangulation?

Nindq4 days ago

Is this from a personal dislike of end goals or an objective suggestion?

Nindq4 days ago(edited)

I think people are overlapping their likes with what is good for draftout

diggitydingdong4 days ago

me and my opp died in the end so we drew and i deranked to gold. reconsidering all my opinions on this "end goal" business

Nindq4 days ago

Just get better, no offense

4

Nindq4 days ago

I can't do end goals myself on this version but I won't say that it should be removed cause of my skill issue

ys854 days ago(edited)

i think triangulation and end fight are a skill a player should be rewarded for having

ys854 days ago

havent had the chance to do any% on draftout yet but i pick the goals as i feel confident ill do better at them than the opponent

Nindq4 days ago

^

diggitydingdong4 days ago(edited)

if you cant tell im being sarcastic/unserious, this was actually pretty fun

Nindq4 days ago

Lmao

Nindq4 days ago

Also are people forced to pick end goals?

Nindq4 days ago

Like is it possible to get two options that are both end goals

ys854 days ago

yeah i think so

Nindq4 days ago

unlucky, maybe that can be removed and everyone would be happy

inoutoftherain4 days ago

then why would you ban axis sheet? one chunk is a single page of numbers, you can definitely memorize it with enough effort, though i'd never want to

inoutoftherain4 days ago

i would agree in general that "a normal person could memorize this if they had to" would make for a decent guideline if that's what we're doing though i still really don't like the low barrier to cheating with various tools

✨Es✨4 days ago

but if the aim is to make it less difficult for new players, then they still have to learn advanced maths to be able to complete end game goals

ys854 days ago

people beat minecraft all the time, just follow the eye

ys854 days ago

or throw and go roughly 200 in the nether

ys854 days ago

the speed at which you get to the stronghold only really matters at a higher level, and by then youre not a new player anymore and willing to learn

inoutoftherain4 days ago

honestly 4 jump is super easy and gets you within a minute or two of average axis result 90% of the time and that's more than fine for beginners

ys854 days ago

that too ^

Iksinski4 days ago

We just talked about capping comp to 1 hour and you want to find stronghold like that? Given it's endgame goals and noone goes for it if unnecessary that just disables those goals for new players

Iksinski4 days ago

Or players that are not Local_tortilla

inoutoftherain4 days ago

no i agree with that part

ys854 days ago

for a new player the timegate would be ender pearls, not triangulation

Ciel4 days ago

No Calc makes you lose like 4min max

inoutoftherain4 days ago

3k blind incoming

pinkpuff4 days ago

Outside of automatic f3c tools and stuff, i think "person could memorize " is a hard guideline to go by, especially with a playerbase this big already. Thats very punishing to casual players who do other things in their life (see: job)

Ciel4 days ago

ok, maybe 5min, anyway it's not that much of a timeloss compared to other things

inoutoftherain4 days ago

i'm not saying people should memorize i'm saying it makes a decent guideline for what should be allowable as an outside referencee

11

pinkpuff4 days ago

In reference to things like banning large spreadsheets too

Nindq4 days ago

They don't tho

Iksinski4 days ago

Like 2 more blaze cycles is about a minute alone, then Nav from hell

pinkpuff4 days ago

Ah i see

Ciel4 days ago

nav is really not that much harder wdym

Ciel4 days ago

like why would nav be more difficult

Nindq4 days ago(edited)

Which new player would be finishing end goals in 1h or 30m?

Ciel4 days ago

You just 2nd portal, are off by like 200-300 blocks, then dig down there

Nindq4 days ago

Like new players are a non issue

Iksinski4 days ago

If you know how how rings generate and exit nether on good coords than yeah

Iksinski4 days ago

I agree that pearls/bastion overall could be capping for new players trying out comp

ys854 days ago(edited)

nbb doesnt really help with that though

Ciel4 days ago

Bastions are a much bigger hurdle for new players than anything nocalc

Nindq4 days ago

Yep

Nindq4 days ago

I doubt any new player whether with or without ninbot is getting to the end in 1h or 30m

2

Nindq4 days ago

They still have 24 other tasks to do

Nindq4 days ago

And are inexperienced in overlapping tasks

Ciel4 days ago

The main problem is bastions, they're so hard and long to do as a beginner

pinkpuff4 days ago

I imagine a lot of this will be helped when the website wiki has all of its info input too. For end goals it can link to sheetless/axis whatever tutorials instead so new people learning that stuff are just brought right to the allowable thing

0

ys854 days ago

the only hurdle is finding the gold tbh, the standard routes the speedrunners are used to dont work anyway because of brutes

Nindq4 days ago

They will eventually learn, I personally have to convince myself to learn the new bastion routes

ys854 days ago

most of the time we need to improvise anyway

Nindq4 days ago

I am a mcsr chud

1

Nindq4 days ago

Who disagrees with banning ninbot and why?

Ciel4 days ago

That would mean that learning new bastion routes would be a big requirement for Competitive, which is not necessarily a bad thing, it's just in its infancy rn

ys854 days ago

the main argument is "end goals take too long without it"

Nindq4 days ago

Never a requirement

Nindq4 days ago

You are queuing people in ur elo

Nindq4 days ago

Meaning they lack skills also

Nindq4 days ago

Maybe they know bastions but don't know other tasks

Iksinski4 days ago

I'm disagreeing because the gamemode is tailored towards speedrunners and ninbot is legal

Nindq4 days ago

You do the tasks you can do and learn how to do they tasks you can't do

Ciel4 days ago

If neither player can route, neither player can get to the end in a timely manner, so it's just always ending at the time limit of 1h

Nindq4 days ago

Np

Nindq4 days ago

They dont pick end goals

ys854 days ago

the idea is we're banning ninbot

Nindq4 days ago

And max they get 2 end goals

Ciel4 days ago

Sometimes you're just forced yto, and that's pretty common

Nindq4 days ago

They are still 22 other tasks

Ciel4 days ago

and? That's still the same

Nindq4 days ago

Personally I believe this situation should be removed

Iksinski4 days ago

Nah but like why do we have to make our lifes harder, the game is already hard

Ciel4 days ago

How does that make my point any less relevant?

Nindq4 days ago

That's my stance if players are never forced to pick between two end goals

11

pinkpuff4 days ago

I dont disagree about banning nbb but i think the discussion atp should be more focused on what are the actual standards for legal external stuff since thats really the issue with it. Someone earlier just said big spreadsheets shouldn't be allowed either. Its all very hard to define imo

Nindq4 days ago

Then the end goals situation is done

ys854 days ago

its not really making it harder, just not making it easier

Ciel4 days ago

That would just mean low elo players would always avoid it, so they would never learn it. It's just putting bandage on a cut limb, what's the point

Ciel4 days ago

I personally think the time limit is just too short, it should be 90min

pinkpuff4 days ago

I mean, the whole point of draft is you can pick what you want. I dont see why it would matter how people choose to draft their game

ys854 days ago

same thing can be said about other goals, like so many players have no idea how to pie for a trial chamber

2

ys854 days ago

theres always a knowledge gap the whole game is about knowledge gaps

ys854 days ago

i have no idea where the suspicious sand in desert temples is

ys854 days ago

theres so much stuff to know

Ciel4 days ago

Because the very fact that you can only choose beetween 2 goals is the point? Sometimes both suck, and that's part of the game

pinkpuff4 days ago

This is agree with tho

Ciel4 days ago

And?

Ciel4 days ago

yes

Nindq4 days ago

Stupid argument

Ciel4 days ago

why?

Nindq4 days ago

When they leave low elo

Nindq4 days ago

And lose to it

Nindq4 days ago

They would be forced to learn it

ys854 days ago

if youre knowledge gapped you lose, its simple

ys854 days ago

someone has to win we cant just remove hard goals

pinkpuff4 days ago

Itd be such a small change that doesnt affect anything for the people who want to play end, but lets low elo players have a much better game. Should we forced to pick spyglass goals so we learn to find geodes too

pinkpuff4 days ago(edited)

This isnt removing itd just be making it so its not 2 end goals against eachother

Nindq4 days ago

In ranked players learn as they go up, it is natural in any competitive game

Iksinski4 days ago(edited)

Wdym low elo players have a much better game

ys854 days ago

no i agree with this

Nindq4 days ago

I can avoid learning ninbot in coal for ranked

Nindq4 days ago

I can avoid learning to route in coal

Nindq4 days ago

I can avoid learning to blaze bed in coal

Nindq4 days ago

But guess what? if you want to rank up you gotta learn and improve

2

pinkpuff4 days ago

If neither of them want to play end then they dont suffer thru end goal boards, that would be more enjoyable for them

Nindq4 days ago

Legit every competitive game is existence

Ciel4 days ago

I don't get why the end should be any special, like with the exact same argument you could say why not just remove the possibility of two trial chamber goals as a choice so low elo players aren't forced to struggle to find them

Ciel4 days ago

It's the exact same thing

pinkpuff4 days ago

No i think this should happen too

Nindq4 days ago

It is not special

Nindq4 days ago

People just make it special

Iksinski4 days ago

Not in competetive - you want to play for elo? Learn the damn game

1

Nindq4 days ago

People dont want to be bothered with it so they complain

Ciel4 days ago

If you play competitive, you should be able to do every single goal, so why would you be allowed to have the chance to avoid the end like this?

1

Nindq4 days ago

"Should'

pinkpuff4 days ago

Because its called draft out

Nindq4 days ago

Gng you are getting this wrong

Ciel4 days ago

It should be a part of the game, just like any other goal, even in the lowest elo

Nindq4 days ago

Agreed

Pythoria4 days ago

Guys instead of worrying about ninjabrain let's just make mojang change how you find / get to strongholds

Ciel4 days ago

YOu could fix this by simply increasing the time limit

Nindq4 days ago

Pls no

Nindq4 days ago

I can't do 1h+ games

Iksinski4 days ago

Hour is enough

Nindq4 days ago

I dont want to stay a quickplay demon forever

Ciel4 days ago

It's just a skill issue for you, tik tok brain

Nindq4 days ago

But if it happens, it is what it is

Nindq4 days ago

I dont even have tiktok installed

Ciel4 days ago

90min is good I believe

Nindq4 days ago

I just dont like the idea of spending an hour plus on a game match

1

Nindq4 days ago

Like it is fully me coping that I am not wasting time to myself

Nindq4 days ago

I agree

Iksinski4 days ago

If we ban ninbot we could as well ban pie charting, googling recipes, f3 and everything related because 'casual players' won't be using those tools effectively if at all. Let's all happily play the way Mojang intended and slide down the rainbowz

5

Ciel4 days ago

If they struggle doing the end, that just makes them more likely to try and improve, and ninjabrain is not relevant to the discussion. If you have only 1h, that means you might not ever have to even try

Nindq4 days ago

Yep

ys854 days ago

what? ninbot is an external program, thats the issue

ys854 days ago

W ragebait tho

3

Iksinski4 days ago

So what?

1

Nindq4 days ago

https://giphy.com/gifs/yeah-speed-ishowspeed-D63HGAzG15LQrjBPRE

poligonbotu

Ciel4 days ago

https://tenor.com/view/discord-mod-discord-4chan-reddit-gif-12469709983918782970

Nindq4 days ago

Wait I can use gifs

Nindq4 days ago

Twinsies

Iksinski4 days ago

Nah but like I'm deadass. I know people that doesn't know about f3, how does that differ?

Nindq4 days ago

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/920709476724649984/1319011149563428997/togif.gif

ys854 days ago

they can press the button

ys854 days ago

f 3

Iksinski4 days ago

But they don't know about the possibility

ys854 days ago

installing another program to play minecraft is too much

Nindq4 days ago

Why shouldn’t ninjabrain bot be banned?

Nindq4 days ago

I need some actual reasons

Nindq4 days ago

Son

Nindq4 days ago

People dont know the crafting recipe for a barrel

ys854 days ago

my friend doesnt know about gold in bastions should we ban bastions

ys854 days ago

like what are we saying now

Ciel4 days ago

You don't know about the possibility of me being with your mom, but that is still possible

Nindq4 days ago

I dont even know the crafting recipe for a hanging sign

1

James4 days ago(edited)

They should not be queuing competitive mode then?

Nindq4 days ago

Draftout forces us to learn new things

ys854 days ago

and ninbot is not a knowledge gap because its not something you can access in game

Iksinski4 days ago

If they don't have ninbot installed then you shouldn't queue? Like make it make sense

ys854 days ago

ninbot is not minecraft

ys854 days ago

f3 is minecraft

Nindq4 days ago

That guy was ragebaiting

Iksinski4 days ago

Why is planifolia legal then?

Nindq4 days ago

Just like you rn

Nindq4 days ago

Game should recognise game

Nindq4 days ago(edited)

Qol

James4 days ago

When you download minecraft does mojang ship ninbot installed with everything step up? Like what are we saying brother

Iksinski4 days ago

Do they ship draftout? Planifolia?

2

ys854 days ago

buddy just step down

James4 days ago

Okay that's my queue to not talk

Nindq4 days ago

Nah this some low effort ragebait

ys854 days ago

ragebait successful im mad

Ciel4 days ago

Cause whether you can see something in the dark or not forces your eyes, and varies a lot depending on the person. planifolia allows everyone to be on the same level

Nindq4 days ago

Like we aint even trying to hide it

Nindq4 days ago

"Does minecraft ship with a monitor?"

1

Iksinski4 days ago

"installing a whole different program just for minecraft is too much"

Iksinski4 days ago

Nah like, deadass y'all trippin

1

ys854 days ago

planifolia is legal because without it you can gain an advantage by raising monitor gamma ultra high for example

Ciel4 days ago

Planifolia is not a software, it's a mod

ys854 days ago

which not everyone can do

Nindq4 days ago

Might as well let me install wurst then

Nindq4 days ago

That why rules exist

Nindq4 days ago

It is to dictate what is allowed and not for a better experience for everyone or competitive integrity

Iksinski4 days ago(edited)

Okay than I'm saying that banning ninbot gonna significantly impact my experience negatively

ys854 days ago

then dont play

ys854 days ago

im sorry

Feinberg4 days ago

this discussion has happened in this thread before, millions of people have found a stronghold by throwing eyes, only thousands have used ninbot. theres an obvious level of friction with ninbot

5

Ciel4 days ago

you gonna cry

1

Feinberg4 days ago

planifolia is legal because gamma 1 in caves literally loses video quality

Feinberg4 days ago

the game is physically different and less watchable on a video or livestream

Iksinski4 days ago

I might lmao

Iksinski4 days ago(edited)

I know why it's legal, but not everyone's gonna have it installed, just like it's not obligatory to have ninbot (which mind you all is just a standalone 3mb jar). Gamma 5 is a big adventage so is ninbot. I just don't see any valid points. At the end of the day, if it's banned then we have to respect that but like, give me a reason that makes sense

Ciel4 days ago

1. We can distinguish Ninbot from other outside help by saying that anything that should be legal should be able to be memorized, which would still allow for example the wiki, as well as simple spreadsheets to be used.
2. Another argument in favor of keeping Ninbot is the fact that triangulation takes too much time otherwise, and to that we've already said that for most elos, from beginners to high elo, bastions for example lose a lot more time than no calc.
3. People recommended the possibility of never having the case where you are forced to choose between 2 end goals. This however would just be avoiding the problem that is that beginners would never have to learn end goals ever until they become good enough, but in my opinion it makes no sense to have a certain part of the playerbase that just never goes for a share of the goals, end goals in this case

Sure it's not perfect, and I don't really know what the regulation would be for spreadsheets, but that's what I see here.

ys854 days ago

it will be coming with a modpack i believe, along with sodium etc

Demi4 days ago

bro you can locate the stronghold without external help but you cant up your gamma which ruins the entire expierence for playing the game

Feinberg4 days ago

have you read the rest of the thread like legitimately or no

1

plushie4 days ago

How many people even know how to run a jar without handholding

1

Iksinski4 days ago

Legitimately better half of it

Feinberg4 days ago

gamma 5 is a accessibility feature, ninbot is not an accessibility feature

Ciel4 days ago

Is there like a better and a worse half? we scaling discord msgs now

Feinberg4 days ago

ninbot removes a game skill and lowers the skill ceiling of all stronghold related tasks

1

Feinberg4 days ago

gamma 5 makes the game stream better, you literally lose quality to dark pixel compression in caves

Feinberg4 days ago

on gamma 1 the player will see things on their monitor that the stream or video literally cant

Iksinski4 days ago

Did I insult you dude? Chill, I'm just expressing my opinion

1

Iksinski4 days ago

I'm sorry for cutting ur message berg

Ciel4 days ago

You are actively disturbing the discussion by ragebaiting.

2

Feinberg4 days ago

You are not helping brother

2

Ciel4 days ago

No one answered what I wrote though, I'd like an opinion about it

1

Ciel4 days ago

rather than give an opinion to the guy who says that Ninbot and the piechart is the same thing

Iksinski4 days ago

I'm not even ragebaiting, I'm asking questions because I'd like to have a say in this, as an active player?

Feinberg4 days ago

1) memorization is a wide range for a wide variety of people, its not a good accurate line
2) timeloss of a strat is irrelevant imo
3) you should never be able to pick two practically identical goals anyways, this isnt an end specific problem imo

4

Ciel4 days ago

All end goals shouldn't be considered identical though, how is Dragon egg and brew lingering potion identical

Ciel4 days ago

Or between goals that require killing the dragon aand those that don't

Ciel4 days ago

Explode End Crystal and Chorus fruit?

Ciel4 days ago

if it's between 20 unique foods and 25 unique foods I get it, but in the case of end goals there is a fairly good diversity

Iksinski4 days ago

I mean if it rolls then (let's say one end goal on board to improve variance) end is gonna become even more of a last resort play. But I agree that more diversity is needed

plushie4 days ago

Explode end crystal is probably easier to do by making your own

plushie4 days ago

I feel 20 and 25 unique is actually meaningfully different because every additional unique food is harder than the previous one

Iksinski4 days ago

Yeah but if the opp got 20 alr and you're on 15 you are not catching up

Tacomonster4 days ago

I would say chorus fruit and end rod are nearly identical, the only difference being you need to have an extra rod

Feinberg4 days ago

I never said they should

?

Feinberg4 days ago

theres very few goals in the game that fit this specific situation

Feinberg4 days ago

the incremental goals are one set of them

Feinberg4 days ago

chorus fruit and end rod and dragon egg and enter end would imo all be close enough

1

Iksinski4 days ago

In current state of the drafting process no calc increases rng bcs you might just get incredibly lucky and hit stronghold on blind - even beeing same pace with your opponent before that. Wouldn't matter as much if it's only gonna be max two tasks per endgame structure/dimension

Feinberg4 days ago

? lmao what

Feinberg4 days ago

you would never ever hit stronghold on blind

Feinberg4 days ago

should we remove blinding onto any sort of structure or mob or biome then as well

Feinberg4 days ago

and if you somehow hit the ~1 in 10k and hit stronghold on blind your opponent is playing the same seed so they will blind in the same spot and hit the same stronghold? no issue

Bompkin4 days ago

i dont think he knows blinding definition

Bompkin4 days ago

i think he menat 2nd portal on it

Iksinski4 days ago

Me english notto so gutto

inoutoftherain4 days ago

yeah there's no question that no-calc would increase second portal rng

eepyLeaf4 days ago

because of new world gen is it even possible hitting eye-spy with nnb??

Iksinski4 days ago

Nah but like not quite? Because going there is so time consuming that it's basically always going to be last goals on the board, but I guess there is no good answer for that?

inoutoftherain4 days ago

yeah it's not always a deepslate layer sh

Iksinski4 days ago

Yeah I meant second portal sorry y'all

Feinberg4 days ago

sure

Feinberg4 days ago

and yes even with proper sheetless you can still miss due to the imprecision

Feinberg4 days ago

but imo that is a very valid part of the game

Feinberg4 days ago

and a totally acceptable tradeoff of having the skill of triangulation actually shown off in the first place

Feinberg4 days ago

theres a lot of other game mechanics and strategies that are random

eepyLeaf4 days ago

it's still minecraft lol

Iksinski4 days ago

Lmao okay it took feinberg for me to be zen with banning ninbot

1

Iksinski4 days ago

I might be a magenta sheep in a sea of other magenta sheeps

James4 days ago

That's sad but we got there

pinkpuff4 days ago

Thoughts on things like two spyglass goals with eachother? I feel like things like that should be prevented too

GMNatasha4 days ago

all spyglass should be banned (im joking, though i agree with u)

2

eepyLeaf4 days ago

BASED

Feinberg4 days ago

its literally the message below

Feinberg4 days ago

like brother

eepyLeaf4 days ago

people can't read bro

Iksinski4 days ago

I still believe that it's gonna get exponentially more annoying but like I'm zen it's just a game, if it were for me I wouldn't have introduced such a ban. And it's not sad, he just has points that are not "installing an extra program for minecraft is too much" and "low elo players will benefit from that" like dude, not even that deep

eepyLeaf4 days ago

after tons of these suggestion threads in both rankedcord and this one, you gotta realize people cannot read

Ciel4 days ago

There's a big difference between Enter End and beat the dragon type goals imo

GMNatasha4 days ago

chat when do we tell fein that we put our stuff in a chest, safety bed, and then just die in the end

2

Iksinski4 days ago

Who's we gang

Tacomonster4 days ago

#Prevent being forced to pick end goals

1

Elag4224 days ago

chat when do we tell fein that we never go to the end in draft out

1

Hispookie4 days ago

lowk they should ban ninbot just so divine travel is viable

Tacomonster4 days ago(edited)

they should just give the coords of every structure and biome so it’s 100% skill based

2

Iksinski4 days ago

Lowk

Elag4224 days ago

give us /locate

Hispookie4 days ago

removes the skill of pieing no?

Tacomonster4 days ago

was a joke

Tacomonster4 days ago

but you can’t really pie structures out of render distance so

Iksinski4 days ago

You can't pie for shipwrecks

inoutoftherain4 days ago

tfw you really want to do end goals but you know that by the time you lose 20 minutes to random backtracking you're just too slow to bother

Iksinski4 days ago

im a slowrun enjoyer

inoutoftherain4 days ago

you might still be faster than me

inoutoftherain4 days ago

i have a 1:34 loss and a 1:13 loss, i had maybe one game that i could have won in under an hour but my opponent forfeited

inoutoftherain4 days ago

i will improve copium

1

Iksinski4 days ago

It's zen ass players don't have to worry about ninbot beeing banned

Iksinski4 days ago

We chillin

1

Iksinski4 days ago(edited)

You don't even have to count pixels yourself

Iksinski4 days ago

Because you're never going to the end

inoutoftherain4 days ago

my biggest brain moment so far is forgetting that you can repair a tool to get the anvil goal. then also forgetting i was holding a freaking nametag. so i went to the surface, got the materials for a lectern, and traded for a book. which i then applied to my pickaxe. which i could have just repaired

inoutoftherain4 days ago

that's me in draftout

inoutoftherain4 days ago

i love playing it but god am i bad lol

Iksinski4 days ago

We're sorry mods, we're gonna keep our private loses in general next time, don't ban us cheers

inoutoftherain4 days ago

lmao yep

1

Elag4224 days ago

wait you can’t just rename an item?

Elag4224 days ago

I’ve never done that goal so idk

pinkpuff4 days ago

Im pretty sure ive done that to get the goal

DriftSythe4 days ago

you can indeed rename an item

DriftSythe4 days ago

any use counts

beniibobs4 days ago

i support this purely because i cant be bothered to set up nbb for new versions

julie4 days ago

"set up" and it's pressing One button

julie4 days ago

make it make sense

DriftSythe4 days ago

typical julie ragebait

beniibobs4 days ago

false info btw

julie4 days ago

what else do you need to do

maskers4 days ago

get toolscreen to work

DriftSythe4 days ago

setup toolscreen onto your instance

maskers4 days ago

if we're doing boateye

DriftSythe4 days ago

the other option is doing calibration which is worse

maskers4 days ago

https://discord.com/channels/1493030345048719483/1495250366873206965/1507506082157953145 is probably something that an average person isn't going to fix themselves

maskers4 days ago

you don't need to recalibrate

DriftSythe4 days ago

wdym

DriftSythe4 days ago

a lot of people have never calibrated in the first place

DriftSythe4 days ago

myself included

maskers4 days ago

i assume they already have ninjabrainbot set up for 1.16.1

DriftSythe4 days ago

you don’t need to calibrate if you were doing boateye in 1.16 which has become the standard

maskers4 days ago

neither on latest versions
you should calibrate if you're not doing boateye, but you don't need to recalibrate for different mc versions

julie4 days ago

i was assuming they already had toolscreen

beniibobs4 days ago

i meant the whole setup and just said nbb that's my bad

beniibobs4 days ago

chat send the camel husk spear after me

julie4 days ago

toolscreen is downloading a jar and then double clicking it

DriftSythe4 days ago

yea I just meant if you didn’t calibrate in 1.16 you have to either download toolscreen or calibrate

7rowl4 days ago(edited)

If you've had a different measuring setup for ninbot before, toolscreen is extremely easy. if you've never learnt it before, all of the information needed to be able to properly use ninbot is a lot of effort for a new player

1

7rowl4 days ago

so its definitely not just "one click"

zom4 days ago

It makes sense to use the SRC ruleset as a starting point for the beta so we can get people playing and finding bugs as quickly as possible, but I don't agree that this discussion should be debating arguments on whether to split from the SRC rules and ban ninbot. Instead we should be giving reasons on why these tools should be explicitly allowed as modifications from the default gamestate. Despite the overlapping communities, Draftout is separate to MCSR and SRC and I think it should be treated as such

wookie4 days ago

I dont really see why its ok to expect players to memorise a whole spreadsheet of coordinates for tulips and other facts but learning how to use nbb is way too hard

Nindq4 days ago

I don't even think ninbot being hard or easy even matters in this debate or discussion

wookie4 days ago

im responding to the messages above

Nindq4 days ago

Ye I understand

wookie4 days ago

I dont really care either way but I think its silly to say learning how to use it is a reason to ban it

Nindq4 days ago

ye ofc, rowl is most likely doing the same and just responding to a message above

Nindq4 days ago

It is better to stop the chain and get back to the main topic

Nindq4 days ago

but hey, who am I to say such

baipandaa4 days ago

I agree with whoever said that if there's already a way to do it in game, there shouldn't a tool allowed

baipandaa4 days ago

like ppl have found the stronghold with the item in the game for ages fine? that's what it's for

Slackow4 days ago

I don't think the ease of installation/setup should be considered when banning a tool. Especially since it could be made way easier. It's kinda a BS reason to ban things. There are other valid reasons to consider banning ninbot, but I don't think this is one of them.

5

RWblox4 days ago

i have a question everyone, if we ban ninbot should toolscreen also be banned? if so would jingle still be allowed im thinking abt mapless buried treasure rn idk how to do it on latest but id assume the thin screen is still used

julie4 days ago

everything thin does is basically the same that 30 fov does

RWblox4 days ago

true

maskers4 days ago

it would definitely be a separate discussion, i don't personally see a point in splitting from src rules to ban anything toolscreen does

CCbrito4 days ago

isn't toolscreen mostly useless in latest versions, specially for draftout?

Iksinski4 days ago

Kinda is

Iksinski4 days ago

Bcs of fog

Iksinski4 days ago

Thin macro still usefull, but like you can set it up in vanilla

CCbrito4 days ago

so I think this is a great point and I think it should be applied to toolscreen as well. I think there are no good reasons for allowing toolscreen if we don't allow nbb

Iksinski4 days ago(edited)

Jojoe loses market for 26 support with this one

The only thing ts does that is useful is eyezoom without the need of changing the sens and that might be a big deal for people with godsense (not necessarily but muscle memory can be off on a convert sens)

Iksinski4 days ago

But like who cares

maskers4 days ago

what would "not allowing toolscreen" mean, specifically not allowing toolscreen because it modifies how minecraft works? banning anything used for resizing?

maskers4 days ago(edited)

if second i feel like itd just open a can of worms for where to draw the line for resizing instead of following speedrun.com rules which have already been discussed and have settled; i don't feel like draftout should have its own long ruleset/discussions about them when you can reuse speedrun.com rules
if first, whats the point if the same thing can be done with jingle, except its less convenient

maskers4 days ago

people use it for rebinds

r0hkxOP4 days ago

toolscreen itself is really unproblematic for draftout imo

r0hkxOP4 days ago

like even if resizing was banned it would still be nice for rebinds and sens

maskers4 days ago

yeah i feel like resizing really doesn't matter too, to try to come up with a ruleset for it

Willerhide4 days ago

As someone who plays with no tools such as eye calculators, macros, or pre-calculation, I don't mind these tools as they aren't a huge difference maker in 95% of games. However I do wish it was discouraged, as it does remove a skill aspect to locating and triangulating strongholds, and managing menus.
In the latest version if you don't hit exact stronghold coords (using axis travel/estimation for example) you typically have to dig further, and if you need to return to nether from stronghold its much more inconvenient. Potentially saving the tool user significant time.
Resizing, on the other hand, only gives a slight advantage in locating entity spikes by avoiding changing the FOV slider. Overall it saves a few seconds.

My personal opinion is that I dislike the sentiment that if you want to improve at a game you must download external software, or use external tools in order to compete. However due to the overlap in communities with MCSR ranked, I believe it would be difficult to outright ban tools entirely.

IdealTV4 days ago

this isnt the aim

bribition2 days ago

ban would be great cause id finally be motivated to properly learn sheetless axis also just more skill to the game and makes draftout better cause nothing beyond the mod needed
i think resizing makes no diff in this version and rebinds are chill so waywall/toolscreen are chill but nowhere near needed

2

Willerhide2 days ago

I know sheetless, but it genuinely hasn't come up in my 92 matches. everytime I have had end tasks I haven't had even 10 obbi.

RWblox20 hours ago

i have a question about this tho actually as good as it may be

RWblox20 hours ago

how do we tell if theyre using ninbot or if theyre just doing sheetless unless theyre a streamer

julie20 hours ago(edited)

f3+c

Aryan20 hours ago

This isn't exactly in terms of reliability but I'm currently running a tournament where I've coached my friends from NEVER speedrunning the game before into now all getting about sub 15 ranked times.

They are kind of speedrun community adjacent. They've watched like the world records and watched me do a good number of runs (I'd estimate aroud 100).

They pretty much all agree that calc feels like cheating and all the "QoL" features in Ninjabrain bot remove a lot of skill in the game.

2

Aryan20 hours ago

I'm not saying this is the the average view point among new players but I really do agree with Justin that it feels way less extreme to newer players

Aryan20 hours ago

-------------------

Aryan20 hours ago

My personal view point as somebody who has been playing since before Dream 1.14 WRs:

I think Calc was only allowed because 2 chunk sheeet axis is decently accurate and fast once you're good at it but not 100%. A lot of people had things where you input coords regardless and that was kinda an extension of the "axis spreadsheet" (by NB)

And allowing 2 eye calc with no QoL (ninbot 1.0) was pretty much just making it more fun (more eye spys, less resetting) and standardizing very complex and unenforceable strats.

I think current ninbot is wayyy to far and I definitely think that especially for something like lockout, calc should be disabled (Just remove F3+C or make it like put your coords into an ingame menu instead of copying to clipboard)

4

RWblox20 hours ago

and would the devs know when we do that?

Aryan20 hours ago

Yeah you can just log F3+C uses along with dimension changes

RWblox20 hours ago

okay that works then

julie20 hours ago

the part of f3+c which tells you what angle you are looking at can just also be removed

1

Aryan20 hours ago

Thats actually really good, I didn't think of that lol

julie20 hours ago

this isnt really why calc was allowed in mcsr

RWblox20 hours ago

i have no problem with the ban of nbb but i wouldnt mind like a day or 2 of grace period incase i dont see the announcement like a dumbass

but if it updates ill check the announcment

julie20 hours ago

there were 100 gigabyte spreadsheets or whatever

Aryan20 hours ago

Yeah I understand that but my viewpoint as the player is that. Like the reason calc was allowed as opposed to removing the shit jojoe used lol

Aryan20 hours ago

Or at least, that was the reason people voted on calc being allowed

Aryan20 hours ago

I could be wrong, I don't remember exactly

Aryan20 hours ago

Like its generally more fun, standarizes strats, and lowers RNG and it isn't really a crazy time save either

Aryan20 hours ago(edited)

(ninbot 1.0)

Aryan20 hours ago

Or whatever the first version was

Aryan20 hours ago

Obviously ninbot 1.5 or whatever we have now is insane

Aryan20 hours ago

If this is a concern you can also strip the decimal in the angle in f3+c

Iksinski19 hours ago

It is insane but stronghold mechanic is unfun and time consuming in the first place (assuming you're playing as intended). Ninbot is taking countless minutes of digging, pearl throwing and overall navigation from the run which makes not only leaving on 6 rods possible, but also far quicker game completions.

julie18 hours ago

with axis you probably only need 7 or 8 rods its njot much different

1

Iksinski18 hours ago(edited)

^In extreme cases like 2-3 minutes because blaze cycles.

Imo Draftout should be aiming towards a 30 minute average match length, or even less as many competetive games do. Draftout is a singleplayer mode that's why I'd personally prefer if the matches were shorter than eg. cs2 or lol. Banning ninbot is working against that goal. I'm still zen with it beeing banned and I don't wanna argue about it, but that's something I was thinking about recently

Iksinski18 hours ago

And you could argue that it actually is balanced to be around 30 minutes at the top level in current state - but completion averages differ drastically between ranks and avergae of those averages should be kept around 30 minutes in my opinion

CrispLake18 hours ago(edited)

nbb standardizes the amount of pearls you need and makes end goals a viable line to plan for. Ender pearls being probably the most scarce resource in the newer versions. I have had a game where I had 2 eye breaks which resulted me needing to gamble for 1 eye portal. I had spent as minimal pearls as possible for traveling nether for biome specific goals which would otherwise add 5-10 minutes extra of gathering blocks and bridging

Feinberg16 hours ago

skill issue if u need more than 5 eye throws

Feinberg16 hours ago

unless its 2k+ then u can get away with 7

Feinberg16 hours ago

pearls r boosted anyways

Feinberg16 hours ago

also youre complaining but you threw unnecessary pearls because you were doing a separate goal

Feinberg16 hours ago

which means the mod is working as intended (balance which goals to use your resources and time on)

CrispLake16 hours ago

no but that is what i mean. You either get quicker completion on separate goals and almost completely give up the possibility to fight for end goals as getting more pearls after the initial boost is close to impossible. Every other goal in the game you can pretty much gather more resources but enderpearls is probably the hardest one to come by after the initial trades

Feinberg15 hours ago

sure but then u just dont use them for the goal that isn't the end idk

Feinberg15 hours ago

I see what u mean tho but they're just not necessary for htd

Feinberg15 hours ago

they're necessary for echest and crystal but thats 2

Iksinski15 hours ago

Getting less than necessary pearls is close to impossible 6+ trades are guaranteed by the mod

Iksinski15 hours ago

With worst luck thats 12+ pearls

Iksinski15 hours ago

Not counting stronghold chests/enderman drops

RWblox12 hours ago

what are ur personal thoughts on banning ninbot fein?

ys8511 hours ago

you can search for his messages earlier in the channel, he's for banning it

RWblox11 hours ago

nice same tbh

RWblox11 hours ago

i mean im chill either way

RWblox11 hours ago

but banning it will ofc only be effective if they have a system like tracking f+c or removing the angle from it or whatever otherwise theres no point banning it cos people will use it if theres no way to detect or prevent

RWblox11 hours ago

and then it would make it less fair on people who follow the rule

ys8511 hours ago

with a theorethical replay system like in ranked, it will be obvious if you throw only one eye or get really close to eye spy every game

bribition11 hours ago

how well do the spreadsheets work if you can't f3c?

inoutoftherain10 hours ago

they would work fine, i never used one, but i don't think they used f3+c to begin with

bribition10 hours ago

didn't they?
i never used one but just assumed they worked by doing f3c and pasting it into the search bar

inoutoftherain10 hours ago

idr

inoutoftherain10 hours ago

but there's no real difference doing it manually anyway

inoutoftherain10 hours ago

blocking f3+c only makes the result less accurate, you can still get absolutely perfect calculated results if you give it a large enough baseline

inoutoftherain10 hours ago

i did axis with spreadsheet for a long time. it's hard. my only real problem with this idea is that i know i'm going to be down here in gold at some point going up against people who also think it's too hard and are sitting there with a home-made program to spit out correct second portal ccordinates to them while i'm suffering through trying to keep my positives and negatives and x's and z's and plusses and minuses straight from each other

inoutoftherain10 hours ago

oh and major and minor

inoutoftherain10 hours ago(edited)

this isn't nearly as big an issue for the top of the leaderboards

Aryan7 hours ago(edited)

I really don't think axis is as hard as people make it out to be. To be fair, I have a degree in math so maybe I'm biased but it's really just practice, especially in terms of the negative and positive X stuff. You can also just write stuff down if you need to.

Feinbergs sheetless guide made me eye spy, or get like within 30 blocks like almost 50% of the time in 1.16: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKJxB9ClPbo

1

roobley7 hours ago

if axis is too hard then return to 4 jump

1

owlbot7 hours ago

I don't think that's true for external tools and mods, if we assume people will use those the whole game mode is already screwed

inoutoftherain7 hours ago

you're talking to somebody who's constantly trying to get directions to coordinates wrong even with ninbot, trust me i find it hard. like i said i did it for months i'm not like making this up or assuming, a lot of people will have trouble with this but want the results, and will cheat to get them

inoutoftherain7 hours ago

people should use 4 jump it just sucks in comparison to axis unfortunately

inoutoftherain7 hours ago

also i'm good at math, it's not a math problem, it's a multitasking problem for me

inoutoftherain7 hours ago

again i like axis a lot actually and i'm not against banning ninbot in general i'm just really worried about the cheating aspect, i really think it could turn cheating from an occasional issue into something that a very large percentage of lower level players do

Threadfinn6 hours ago(edited)

Disabling f3+c should be really easy to do and fully stops people using ninbot unless they code it themselves to have manual coordinate and angle entry. And the game can't be designed around stoppping those very dedicated cheaters. Cheating happens even in games with good anticheats which minecraft does not have. I also think if ninbot is banned then the giant spreadsheets based on f3+c would also be banned since its the same concept, and those would also be patched out by disabling f3+c.
edit: since f3c has other uses I agree fully disabling it probably isn't good, but removing or slightly changing the angle part should still be an easy change.

maskers5 hours ago

- id be fine with removing angle from f3+c or changing f3+c format slightly to break ninbbot but i dont think fully removing it will further help, and it will stop people from using f3+c to copy coords
- i didnt know axis back when this conversation started but the spreadsheet for it is smaller than i expected so honestly idk how i feel about it

owlbot5 hours ago

yeah i'd like to keep f3+c, i often keep interesting coords in notepad and i think that's valid

roobley5 hours ago

f3+i is way better for keeping coords. it’s a lot more readable since it doesn’t have decimals on the coords and it also gives you the block you’re looking at so you don’t have to note down what it was

roobley5 hours ago

so i don’t think outright disabling f3+c is a bad idea

maskers5 hours ago

hm maybe, though ive never thought of it and i still think you should be able to use f3+c to quickly copy coords if this is just what youre used to
if f3+c were to be randomly disabled i wouldnt have thought of f3+i

owlbot5 hours ago

i also never thought about using f3+i but it has the downside that you need to make sure you're looking at a block that's close enough and doesn't have too many data components

owlbot5 hours ago

i usually press f3+c when i enter the nether just as a fallback even if i never intend to use the data

maskers1 hour ago

you don't copy data components with cheats disabled

maskers1 hour ago

but yeah you can't f3+i at the sky

RWblox57 minutes ago

i didnt know this existed tysm

RWblox56 minutes ago

does it just copy coords?

julie55 minutes ago

it copies data of the block or entity you are looking at