Discord Forum Board

SOOTOPlast week

This has already been done with allowing 500% brightness

r0hkxlast week

500% brightness is a can of worms that is mostly unrelated to "vanilla"

1

DriftSythelast week

the game is basically unplayable with default brightness f3+f is qol

DriftSythelast week

imo the new version is just different like the piechart updates automatically when going up chunks and there's no like going down 4 because no lazy chunks or whatever that doesn't mean we should add those back

3

r0hkxlast week(edited)

i agree with this, i don't think vanilla changes should be reverted or that things we like from previous versions should be forward ported in almost every case, but also draftout doesn't have the same need for vanilla parity requirements that speedrunning does. so for example, a mod that lets you bind settings changes to a hotkey is something that could maybe be considered for draftout. so you could just have a hotkey that increases or decreases rd by 1. the end result is the same but the logic that gets there is meaningfully different

SOOTOPlast week

Torches are supposed to have the value to allow you to see the fullbright removes, I don’t think we should be limited to default brightness but 500% brightness is qol

DriftSythelast week

the proportion of minecraft players that actually play without fullbright or some brightness boosting mod and use torches is mininimal throughout the history of the game

0

SOOTOPlast week(edited)

You don’t understand how inexperienced the average player is, this game has 300million accounts, majority of the player base probably doesn’t even know how to install fullbright

DriftSythelast week

I've played minecraft for 6 years and not met a single player who has used torches

DriftSythelast week

and draftout is meant to be a competitive game

maskerslast week(edited)

since it's truly an in game feature that was reverted

i don't think this makes it any more vanilla, we don't just combine features from all mc versions
the only thing it changes is that people are used to it and its more annoying to play without it than if it never existed

maskerslast week

i mean
for instance you wont see many players who think sodium extra is cheating, yet here are speedrunners

r0hkxlast week

the main problem with default brightness is that, when you record minecraft gameplay and upload it, the already low visibility from the game being dark becomes even worse because of how video compression works. the lower quality the recording, the worse it gets. its not just that its hard to see things, information is actually lost. for speedrunning, every run needs to be recorded so it can be submitted and verified, and setting gamma to 5 in options.txt was an easy solution. when that method was patched in vanilla, it was unpatched in speedrunning mods since "vanilla parity" never really mattered for gamma 5 anyways. if it wasn't originally possible with options.txt in 1.16 it probably would have just been added through a mod anyways

DriftSythelast week

that's true speedrunning does have a lot stricter rules than other parts of the game

r0hkxlast week

that is mostly off topic for draftout but i think the main point is that we don't really need to value "vanilla parity" in the same way as in speedrunning. i do think its generally a bad idea to forward port things that get removed for draftout, but i don't think its a bad idea to just add new things parellel to the minecraft version. a mod that just adds a hotkey to increase or decrease rd wouldn't necessarily be problematic to add imo, and can be discussed on its own merits (unlike "adding back f3+f")

SOOTOPlast week

Pearl trades are boosted because that’s what speedrunners are used to, f3f just feels like a less impactful equivalent to this

1

SOOTOPlast week

I see what you mean, I could’ve definitely framed the suggestion in a better way

DriftSythelast week

from what I've seen pearl trades are boosted because it makes things like the end goals very annoying to do without them and pearl trades have been boosted in lockout for like as long as I know

ZadikGoobalast week

id live without f3f if my pie chart didnt cover the render number in the menu

r0hkxlast week

pearl trades are an interesting point and there is obviously a heavy speedrunning bias in draftout, but draftout doesn't need to be entirely logically consistent. boosted pearl trades might be because of speedrunner bias, or it might just be because it makes the game more fun (or probably some combination of the two). if a non-vanilla feature does just make the game better by a meaningful amount and doesn't have any major tradeoffs, then it should probably be added

2

r0hkxlast week

draftout is a very vanilla based game, and there are good reasons to keep it like that, but it doesn't need to be uncompromisingly vanilla like speedrunning

SOOTOPlast week

I dont really see any major trade offs for f3f so I guess it depends on whether you consider it meaningful

ZadikGoobalast week

i see only positives in adding f3f for the feel of the game

ZadikGoobalast week(edited)

the main reason i want it back however: (miniscule reason)

SOOTOPlast week

A little off topic here, while I agree with pearl trades staying boosted so that end goals take forever it does get rid of decision making of choosing to trade with cleric or go for a warped forest

maskerslast week

i mean you need to close the piechart anyway to refresh it right

DriftSythelast week

I don't like adding back an unrebindable keybind when literally every other f3 keybind is customizable in the newer version

1

r0hkxlast week(edited)

if f3+f were ported to draftout it would probably function like every other similar bind in this version

52

SOOTOPlast week

It could just be added in in a way that it is also customizable?

maskerslast week

yeah boosted pearl trades feel off to me

SOOTOPlast week(edited)

I don’t see why you feel like it’s mutually exclusive

r0hkxlast week

imo a better solution to the clunky pie chart experience in this version would be a mod that cleans up the pie chart more. better scaling with gui, rebindable numbers in game, function better in menus, stuff like that

2

r0hkxlast week

the pie chart is a debug feature that isn't really meant to be used in actual gameplay, but since its obviously an important gameplay tool in draftout i feel like it should just be cleaned up directly

maskerslast week

yeah i feel like being able to change the piechart size independent of gui size would be a good draftout feature

r0hkxlast week

we've seen mojang clean up the f3 menu in recent versions, so cleaning up the pie chart in the same way makes sense to me

DriftSythelast week

toolscreen isn't even compatible with mac atm

SOOTOPlast week

I feel like this doesn’t rlly fix the clunkiness of going in and out of the menu over and over to find the correct distance

r0hkxlast week

what if you could refresh the pie chart in the pause menu?

r0hkxlast week

and it didn't cover the render distance slider

maskerslast week

this feels just non vanilla to me
granted this is how it works on servers

r0hkxlast week

yeah im not sure if that's too far or not but it would be solution much closer to vanilla in this version

SOOTOPlast week

Does anyone know why f3f was removed in the first place?

ZadikGoobalast week

cause mojang hates mcsr

SOOTOPlast week

Did they just remove it cuz they didn’t like it or something

SOOTOPlast week(edited)

Idk to me it just feels random that they removed f3f instead of f3g or f3h for example

maskerslast week(edited)

as a guess didn't know how to make it non confusing when adding simulation distance

maskerslast week

which is silly imo but

DriftSythelast week

f3g and f3h have a lot more uses than f3f

DriftSythelast week

for like the general minecraft community

r0hkxlast week

you can also make f3+f toggle fog when you launch your game in a debug mode (which is not allowed for draftout or speedrunning)

0

r0hkxlast week

that was added in 1.21.something

r0hkxlast week

sim dist was added in 1.18 and f3+f for rd was removed in 1.19

SOOTOPlast week

I just chose two random ones as examples

r0hkxlast week

given its a debug feature it could be something as simple as a single developer thinking "this doesn't seem very useful anymore" and removing it

SOOTOPlast week

And yet we can still hold f3c to crash the game

SOOTOPlast week

Task manager

r0hkxlast week

f3+c does a lot more than purely crash the game, its called "debug crash" for a reason

SOOTOPlast week

Makes sense

SOOTOPlast week

Feels like we’re going off topic tho I think that’s mb

r0hkxlast week

i also kinda derailed but yeah i think that changing render distance specifically for piedar is pretty clunky in this version, and it could be worth it to add or tweak a few features to make it cleaner

r0hkxlast week

is adding back f3+f the best way to do that? maybe, i wouldn't really be opposed to that, but i don't think "vanilla parity" is a good reason. many players already being familiar with f3+f is a good justification though

1

SOOTOPlast week

Add a hotkey to change render distance

SuperSandlast week(edited)

Just wanna give some clarification here, the reason F3+F was removed was bc Mojang saw people using them outside of debugging, which was never intended. In fact, debugging was never meant to be used by the average player for gameplay or competition, but it turned out to be that way since it can be accessed with a single button. If u were to do the same in any other competitive game outside of Minecraft u would be banned since it's basically using the equivalent of a hacked client. Jeb has previous said that he regrets adding the F3 debugging menu way back then, but they can't remove it bc many people rely on it too much so obviously it would cause resentment across the community. Now Mojang has to improve their debugging tools not only for developers, but also for the rest of the player base even tho that was never their intention to begin with

SuperSandlast week

Btw this is also the reason why compasses, clocks, maps, loadstones, recovery compasses, etc all exist. They're meant to be an alternative to the debugging menu for casual players, which is what Mojang wants

maskerslast week

source? im curious

SOOTOPlast week

people do the same thing with f3+g and f3+b but those weren't removed

SOOTOPlast week

and the same thing with the piechart but that isnt removed

ShadowMilolast week

well removing the piechart would cause global riots

SuperSandlast week

So for context, this is from a Noxcrew developer. There was a discussion about removing hitboxes from one of their games (Rocket Spleef Rush) on their server MCCI. This is just his opinion on the matter but I'm inclined to believe him considering Noxcrew has a healthy and sustainable relationship with Mojang (some Mojang employees r friends with Noxcrew members, even before they got hired)

SOOTOPlast week

i guess we gotta ban f3c

SuperSandlast week(edited)

As for the Jeb statement, Jeb created a book called "Minecraft Game Design" that's used for developers to give guidelines and rules to make Minecraft consistent and fun for everybody. The book was shown off during Minecraft Live 2020 and it became public due to a Swedish law requiring all books and literature that r published and distributed to be collected for their giant library archive they have. Several people made videos breaking the book down and in it Jeb says he's not a fan of the debugging menu

SuperSandlast week(edited)

And also wants to develop tools and features that act as an alternative to debugging

maskerslast week

based off this i think it's a very bold claim to make that this is the reason?
jeb is just one person and 1) it's just his opinion afaik, 2) afaik he hasn't said that about specifically f3+f
and i doubt mojang would be asking a noxcrew developer for an opinion when deciding what to do with f3+f

SuperSandlast week(edited)

It's not just about F3+F it's about the entire concept of debugging in general. F3+F could've been removed for reasons completely unrelated to the intent they had with debugging. These aren't like hard, concrete evidence they're just clues that makes me think it points in the direction of that, but stuff like this does change my view about debug functionality and how we use them so much

Uniquepotatoes7 days ago

having a debug menu available in survival games with no commands makes no sense tbh, they add features like compasses and lodestones but people can just circumvent them with coordinates and stuff

junesies 🌸3 days ago

idk i think f3 f is just a really nice thing to be added and i think it goes no further than that, it's just a lot more comfortable

junesies 🌸3 days ago

i dont rly care as much about the integrity of the "vanilla experience" but i understand if other ppl care abt that

inoutoftherain3 days ago

ive been using f3 in survival since 1.4 or whatever it was, i don't really know of anybody who plays survival or smps who doesn't, not just coords either, light level and entity count are super useful

RWblox3 days ago

i feel like this is a good idea bc its not vanilla nowadays i guess but with that logic we should change back the pearl trades to latest version standard of lower rates

Lightning2 days ago

is there a reason to not add this other than vanilla parity?

inoutoftherain2 days ago

i mean, it is a form of skill to deal with the new f3 stuff, changing would be reversing the burden of learning new things from people who already speedrun 1.16 to people who don't

Lightning2 days ago

its not really a skill tho right?
like binary searching the correct render is not really difficult, its just annoying and a timeloss for both players

suboptimal2 days ago

at worse it should take like 5 menu changes to find the distance and you dont have to like go back 4 or anything for lazy chunks

suboptimal2 days ago

just binary search or smt

Lightning2 days ago

if you start at 20 and binary search it can take 7

Lightning2 days ago

and the timeloss between both players is almost the same

Lightning2 days ago

id say the potential skill loss of menu changing is worth it, considering how it works now i can pie and spend half a minute while opp just sends a direction and gets it

Threadfinn2 days ago

I disagree with this, each change probably takes me 5 seconds more than it takes for a top player, losing me potentially 30 seconds to my mechanics. It is a skill, just because it's annoying doesn't mean it should be removed imo.

suboptimal2 days ago

How are you getting 7

Lightning2 days ago

true but for the people your queueing it won't be more than 5 sec total, with a game of 30 min

Lightning2 days ago

start on 20 then 10, 15, 13, 12, 11, 10 then back to 20

suboptimal2 days ago

I forgot the change back to original my fault

suboptimal2 days ago

Why are we on 20 rd

suboptimal2 days ago(edited)

We should be on 17

suboptimal2 days ago(edited)

And thats like the same as 20