Discord Forum Board

theotherguylast week

Worst case scenario you have like 2 of them on the board as long as you're drafting away from them. Seeing the distribution of tasks you should be able to play almost every match entirely in OW and early Nether

TNT444OPlast week

Even with this "worst case scenario" they still affect the outcome and the format of the gamemode.

You are basically saying "this is not a big issue" but it still is an issue

Jacksonlast week

almost no one in the closed beta even went to the end, and the majority of them are pro speedrunners

Jacksonlast week

the time it takes to beat the game in modern versions is way longer than any other goal

theotherguylast week

exactly

Tacomonsterlast week

i think the point of "it doesnt show up often" is kinda dumb, if it shows up at all, then its a neccessary skill to learn to master the gamemode. plus, if youre a pro speedrunner, picking those goals is a guaranteed win over someone without practice

1

Jacksonlast week

i mean, the point of the draft is to pick to your strengths. if someone's strength is endgame stuff they can pick those and go for them, knowing they will fall behind on OW objs which are much more common

4

blanket addictlast week(edited)

I watched most of feinberg's streams in the closed beta and I always disliked the end goals then because it was usually a drawn out cutscene, they're kinda just so slow with very little overlap potential, especially in new version minecraft without the ranked filter. it's usually just a very safe and very boring goal #13

6

Jacksonlast week

i think the only issue i have is the advantage calc has

Jacksonlast week

fair

TNT444OPlast week

As someone who played a lot of Mar1n's lockout mod with the same objective list, the end objectives were always the last to be completed as it obviously doesn't make sense to go for them. So in a scenario of the game being something around 12-11 with 2 end objectives left, the speedrunner wins 100% of the time - basically, they are free points for the speedrunners.

blanket addictlast week

it does feel bad to just not have end goals though, but also there's so little to do there when it comes to making goals I think it'd be fine to not have goals for it

blanket addictlast week(edited)

it works a lot worse in draftout than bingo due to no pvp

Jacksonlast week

yeah idk, because i personally like going for harder goals

Jacksonlast week

if every game is 10 mins it's not as interesting

blanket addictlast week

I think it's just like too endgame compared to the other endgame stuff without overlap potential

Tacomonsterlast week

the end goals are not whats making the game longer

Tacomonsterlast week

you can have other goals that take time that arent the same progression to the end

blanket addictlast week(edited)

really long goals that don't overlap tend to be safe, boring, and only relevant in close games because they're so out of the way

TNT444OPlast week

If every endgame is a mcsr speedrun its even less interesting

Jacksonlast week

i think it would help if they added some way to find stronghold without calc

thunderzlast week

agree

justinlast week(edited)

https://youtu.be/X_Eu7bZdI9g?t=249 rowl said the intent is there to be a more proper balance of late game goals, i.e it would become a more important part of draftout once that system is put in place

thunderzlast week

but hopefully in future not so much end in boards

blanket addictlast week

I upvoted this suggestion but I think both ways have a solid case, I think if the pool of goals increases by like 5x without many new end goals being added it'd probably be less of a problem

thunderzlast week(edited)

i had 4 end obj in one game

blanket addictlast week

a super out of the way goal with no overlap is less of a problem if it's a rarity

Jacksonlast week

yeah if it's limited to 1 or 2 it's better

Jacksonlast week

per board

Tacomonsterlast week

i think end goals can be entirely removed by making the endgame goals like 12 breeds or smt

1

Tacomonsterlast week

you have more overlap potential while keeping the goal difficult

blanket addictlast week

end goals would also be less annoying if there were more goals that overlapped well with them

Tacomonsterlast week

theres also the issue of setup, you need to have ninbot and stuff to play draftout just for these few goals

1

Tacomonsterlast week

ideally the setup is as minimal as possible and people could easily start learning routing over normal speedrunning

Jacksonlast week

agreed

blanket addictlast week

watching feinberg he'd usually never overlap the earlier parts of beating the game with anything also because it just doesn't make a ton of sense to route a bastion most games, or to stay for 2 minutes in a fort killing blazes, when there's other more urgent objectives on the board

blanket addictlast week(edited)

so usually the entire speedrun would just happen as the last goal uninterrupted and it's like a 10 minute goal given that

Tacomonsterlast week

even if end goals are rare, i think the speedrunning aspect ruins the routing strategy from the rest of the game. those goals would be less entertaining for both the viewer and player as they have less variability and mostly follow the same gameplay from ranked

bribitionlast week

I disagree and think more end/endgame related objectives should be included
they are fun and add suspense and make the line to win more complicated

Tacomonsterlast week

end goals have the least suspense because you can see your opponents progress through advancements

Tacomonsterlast week

i dont think its more complicated either its just more tedious

bribitionlast week

not as tedious as 64 coloured X or get an xp bottle or kill 100 mobs and I think they are all good goals I just also think endgame goals are too

if people dont want to do endgame goals becuase they take to long then the solution is to get quicker at it
its a good skill-diff

Tacomonsterlast week

i think youre misunderstanding, nobody here said that end goals are bad cause they take too long

Tacomonsterlast week

its just that end goals in specific require setup of ninbot and prior experience of speedrunning

bribitionlast week

they dont require it at a low level of play
if you are okay at minecraft you can still beat the dragon pretty quickly with no tech
but that experience and learning is a good skilldiff and a good part of the game to have

TNT444OPlast week(edited)

Your second point makes no sense, because of the rating system you are unavoidably eventually getting opponents with the same skill level, and at that point they are definetly gonna matter

Tacomonsterlast week

major issues are:
1. speedrunning experience and tool setup
2. end goals have no variance, its just another speedrun like ranked but slower
3. lack of routing strategy because you cant do many overlaps, its always the final goal

Jacksonlast week

if ninbot was not required, i still don't see how it's a bad goal to have

TNT444OPlast week

I just wouldnt like being a comeptitive mcsr player being a requirement to being a competitive draftout player

Jacksonlast week

like finding a trial chamber requires knowledge of pi chart and stuff

Jacksonlast week

it's just another mc skill

TNT444OPlast week(edited)

And I know this is going to stir a lot of controversy as the intersection of the two playerbases is huge, and obviously people that speedrun would like their skill to carry over to get an edge, but im just explaining my POV

Tacomonsterlast week

piecharting is easier and a skill that you need to learn regardless if youve done speedrunning 1.16

Tacomonsterlast week

its different in new versions

primekrlast week

I don't think they should be removed entirely but I wouldn't mind there being a system that makes it so there can only be one-two end related goals in a draft so a non speedrunner can still go for other goals

TNT444OPlast week

Piecharting is by far not the biggest problem

Jacksonlast week

a lot of the 1.16 stuff doesn't even carry over tho

Tacomonsterlast week

if you could find the stronghold in the same speed as without a calculator, then it would be fine

r0hkxlast week

im not sure if this is implemented yet, but i believe the plan is for quickplay to not include more difficult objectives at lower skill levels

Tacomonsterlast week

i dont think that entirely solves the issue, as if you want to become a top draftout player you would still need top level mscr experience

1

r0hkxlast week

i don't fully agree that you need "top level" speedrunning experience, but no matter what, if you want to become a top draftout player you will need to learn new and difficult things

TNT444OPlast week

Agreed, but should speedrunning really be a part of them?

Tacomonsterlast week

i feel that draftout is much better focusing on the strategy element of routing goals, which is why im interested in the gamemode to begin with

TNT444OPlast week

Yeah same

Tacomonsterlast week

the skill based elements of end fights and bastion routes arent something i should be forced to learn when im trying to route my goals

bribitionlast week

Yes it should be

1

bribitionlast week

You don't need them
Especially in the modern versions

r0hkxlast week

why not?

3

r0hkxlast week

entering the end and defeating the ender dragon are just parts of the vanilla game, and it seems completely fair to make objectives out of them

Tacomonsterlast week

i feel this is like a bias, a lot of people really enjoy speedrunning and its why they prefer keeping elements of it in

bribitionlast week

It's where lockout bingo comes from

TNT444OPlast week

We're not saying its not fair, they just don't seem to be aligning with the spirit of the mode

TNT444OPlast week

Exactly, wouldn't you want to make draftout more appealing to people that don't like speedrunning?

primekrlast week

is there a number on how many end related goals there are (I don't want to go on the wiki and check)

Tacomonsterlast week(edited)

i mean sure you can force people to learn new stuff but unless im spending hours grinding speedrunning im never beating someone in diamond or netherite (ranked) on an end goal

bribitionlast week

I don't think that if you are good enough to be a top level draftout player you can't beat the game quickly
And if you aren't a top level player then it's probably not the deciding factor of the match

primekrlast week

cus it feels like there can't be that many and a non speedrunner could definitely just ignore the goals

r0hkxlast week

you could a) learn, b) beat them on the other goals or c) play quickplay where you likely won't get those goals (at least at somepoint)

1

primekrlast week

and do other objectives

11

TNT444OPlast week

Also, I'd be interested to hear the opinion of some of the content creators that took part in the closed beta stage

Tacomonsterlast week

this doesnt make the goal better to include, it still feels like it detracts from the routing elements of draftout and focuses more on just mscr

1

TNT444OPlast week(edited)

-enter the end
-find stronghold
-eat chorus fruit
-obtain end rod
-obtain dragon egg
-fall into the void

Tacomonsterlast week

learning speedrunning isnt something that appeals to me, i feel that the strategic gameplay of draftout should be more leaned into. the goals relating to the end just feel like they detract from that feeling and suggest you need to have experience with speedrunning to participate, as well as not being nearly as unique as some of the other draftout goals

the goals of leading and breeding 8 mobs, 20 foods, and 13 hostile mobs are much more diverse in how you attempt them, which can involve unique strategies like zombifying a villager for a zombie villager, planting a potato for a poisonous one, or creating a copper golem purely for an additional mob to lead around. with the end goals, there is little creativity in how you achieve them, with the exact same progression of pearls + fortress + stronghold, which slow down the game without providing a unique experience, generally following the exact same progression as ranked.

regardless of how rare the goals may be, any player who is higher ranked on the leaderboard is required to be capable of performing these tasks, and at a high level to compete with other speedrunners. for a newer player, this involves setting up additional resources such as ninbot and toolscreen, which just add additional resistance to learning the gameplay of draftout, and i would prefer if that was not necessary.

Tacomonsterlast week

ok imma go now @TNT444 can you respond to the replies

blanket addictlast week

I disagree with this I like those goals mentioned more

blanket addictlast week

1. all 3 of those goals come with way more interesting routing decisions
2. there is significantly more overlap potential and there's various ways to go about all of them

blanket addictlast week

the end goals are tedious imo because they are long and anti suspense

blanket addictlast week

I think goals that, when completed, are completed as someone's goal 13 over 50% of the time, should maybe not exist

1

DriftSythelast week

you don't need to "learn" speedrunning to do the end goals

blanket addictlast week

and I think this is why nobody is entering the end, the end goals are just big outliers in how long they take and how much they interfere with other goals

0

DriftSythelast week

it'll just be faster if you have more knowledge

blanket addictlast week

I think end goals should definitely not maintain their current frequency atleast, as they kinda all play the same

blanket addictlast week

either it'll be "enter end and do a thing before killing the dragon" or "enter end and kill the dragon then do a quick thing", those will all play basically the same because entering the end takes a long time

blanket addictlast week

I think goals like full diamond armour might also be problem goals

DriftSythelast week

for what reason

blanket addictlast week

ultra end game goals that require very dedicated time investment are kinda dead on most boards, only coming into play when either someone is trying to guarantee a 13th goal or as one of the last ~3 goals, I think things like this are kinda just boring and I don't think they really add any interesting gameplay or decisions

blanket addictlast week

like maybe it's better if goals like that just don't exist and every time a game goes to 25 goals the last goal will be something that in another game could've been completed at some earlier point

DriftSythelast week

full diamond is not that difficult to get with newer version caves

DriftSythelast week

imo chainmail armour is more of a timesink based on the siutation you're in

2

DriftSythelast week

and just removing all the difficult goals is just not the solution and takes away from routing them into your gameplay

blanket addictlast week

idk the average time it takes because nobody does it but it's gotta be pretty long

blanket addictlast week

it's the goals that are so difficult it's rarely worth routing them in that I think might be problems

blanket addictlast week

I think the end goals, diamond armour, maybe chainmail, they might be like that

blanket addictlast week

if a goal is too long and too out of the way then it's extremely rare for it to be worth overlapping with other goals, and it's consistently better to leave it as long as possible (or to go for it as goal 13 when you have a solid lead)

DriftSythelast week

it's not that hard to route them into your gameplay

blanket addictlast week

it's not hard but it's not worth

blanket addictlast week

like it's a timesink for 1 goal

DriftSythelast week

for example if you see a lot of caving goals you could commit to caving

blanket addictlast week

it's the suboptimal play

DriftSythelast week

and if you get a good cave you could play for diamond armour

blanket addictlast week

that said like this is theoretical

blanket addictlast week(edited)

this is based on the vibes I got from watching 5 feinberg streams

blanket addictlast week

but I think it's worth thinking about

DriftSythelast week

if there is bastion related goal you could also get gold for chainmail armour

DriftSythelast week

sure you don't fully focus on it but at a top level you should be taking everything into consideration imo

blanket addictlast week(edited)

I'm kinda just unsure if it's the right thing to incentivize when on every board with an ultra end game board you could instead have a goal like, idk drink an invis potion

blanket addictlast week

random example

TNT444OPlast week

Even though average game length is 1h?

blanket addictlast week

I think it's more exciting for close games to come down to goals that you could've seen completed anywhere from the 15-25 range, and it just made sense to save them for later

DriftSythelast week

it's just not ?

DriftSythelast week

and draftout isn't meant to be a short game

blanket addictlast week

the dream of the obtain end rod race is a lot rarer than the 10 minute cutscene to guarantee a win

blanket addictlast week

and even in close games, 12-12, one player is likely to have a multiple minute head start in that race

TNT444OPlast week

Last game i was 12-8 ahead at 35 mins and 1 of the remaining goals was end and the other 4 rng based ones (bottle of enchanting for example)

DriftSythelast week

you can trade for bottle of enchanting

TNT444OPlast week

Game went on for 15 more min...

blanket addictlast week(edited)

which like, that's fine if they win they played better and got ahead, but the game ends with a 10 minute cutscene and it had little impact on routing

DriftSythelast week

lockout is inhrently rng based

Jacksonlast week

you can always forfeit if you dont want to play for the end in that situation

TNT444OPlast week

Yeah

blanket addictlast week

I also agree this situation is way more common than games where the end goal is meaningful

blanket addictlast week

it makes for a very tedious finish

DriftSythelast week(edited)

you can do it faster than 15 minutes

blanket addictlast week

going for the end goal is clearly the correct play here (unless opponent is competing, which is easy to identify), but now it takes 10-15 extra minutes to win

blanket addictlast week(edited)

I said a lot advocating against end goals but I'm not convinced they should be removed yet, but I think it's worth considering it like a week or two from now

blanket addictlast week(edited)

once meaningful stats are available

awesomeSalladlast week

I don’t like endgame objectives not because of what OP said but because there’s not much chance for overlap. Overlapping objectives is, in my opinion the heart and soul of lockout and having goals that basically prevent overlap just suck imo

blanket addictlast week

nah the problem is that it's 1 goal

blanket addictlast week

if it were worth 2 goals or something this would be more of a thing

blanket addictlast week

like you don't want to spend time overlapping such a time consuming goal when there's any fast goals remaining

DriftSythelast week

blanket addictlast week

there are basically none besides other stuff that follows the route of beating the game (which there is no guarantee you will get)

DriftSythelast week

that's the whole point of drafting

blanket addictlast week

all bastion and fort goals do not actually overlap with the beat the game goal

DriftSythelast week

kill silverfish

blanket addictlast week

because it's almost always better to do those goals, go back to the overworld for some other goals, and save the beating the game part for later

DriftSythelast week

mossy stone brick wall

blanket addictlast week

yeah stronghold and end goals do overlap but that's not many goals

blanket addictlast week

mossy stone brick wall does not

DriftSythelast week

it does

DriftSythelast week

there are faster ways to get it but if you see a fastion it can be faster to just go stronghold

1

blanket addictlast week

like it does, but mossy stone wall + beat game is very unlikely to be worth it compared to going back to the overworld and someone wins mossy stone wall through other means

blanket addictlast week

and like this is true IF there is no faster way to get 2 goals

blanket addictlast week

I think that will almost never be true

blanket addictlast week

by the time it is true mossy stone wall will almost always be gone

blanket addictlast week(edited)

the end goals are just such bad value for time compared to other goals that it takes extreme circumstances for it to become viable over other goals (with the exception being when you've hit 12 and now you autowin by going for it)

blanket addictlast week(edited)

atleast that's what I think rn, in due time there will be stats that prove this right or wrong

blanket addictlast week(edited)

I agree that getting to 12 with a lead and then doing an end goal means you deserve the win I just think it's boring to watch it play out

blanket addictlast week

if that's what you're saying atleast honestly I'm not quite sure what you mean

7rowllast week

I only scimmed through this thread and I'll just say why I think end goals will stay:
1. I think speedrunning is an important skillset of general mc and this isnt 1.16 ranked, its latest version. You dont have to learn speedrunning to be good at draftout, you need to learn speedrunning this version of minecraft. People who've speedran before are certainly at an advantage, but its not the end of the world
2. I disagree with the argument that its completely unoverlappable. Since trades are buffed, trading a bastion is a great utility for exploring because it gives you pearls and obby. There are a lot of goal that you can do using a bastion instead of doing them manually in the overworld.
3. End goals being a guaranteed win and boring to watch I just disagree with. People can always mess up, especially in this version, any% isnt as easy as in 1.16.

In general everyone is judging things too early since 0.1% of the matches played in closed beta and now had actual opponents of equal skill level. You cant judge how game feels for majority of playerbase by watching Feinberg stomp on somebody who is 5 times worse than him

2

7rowllast week

If end goals are That Bad and majority of the players want it to be removed, we will consider it in the future

blanket addictlast week

I agree that it's too early to judge, the end goals will probably be a lot better if routing bastions becomes a more common strategy and more games are going 12-12

blanket addictlast week

even if it's not a guaranteed win, I do think it's boring when the best line is someone is at 12 and ahead by a lot and they'll 95% chance win if they spend 10 minutes beating the game

7rowllast week

that is an issue with every game ever, i can always give u an example of that

blanket addictlast week

it should become obvious pretty quickly once more games are getting played how often that happens vs how often you get end races that matter or routes where going to the end earlier with overlaps makes sense

Jacksonlast week

making a safe play when ahead is pretty normal tho

blanket addictlast week

it's mostly just bc it's 10 minutes without suspense and most other goals aren't really like this (and other goals that are like that might also be boring)

blanket addictlast week(edited)

it's just that it's a really long safe play and it takes away a slot that could potentially go towards a more varied endgame goal

blanket addictlast week

I think it's not a big problem if the end stuff gets more exciting with more even matchups

Tacomonsterlast week

i think eat chorus fruit can be removed, making end goals slightly less frequent and not including another duplicate "outer end" goal (end rod)

Tacomonsterlast week

i would be fine with that

DriftSythelast week

blanket addictlast week

I kinda feel like even if there is a balance problem where it's boring there should be exactly 1 end goal like get dragon egg just because like it's aura to have 1 goal where you beat the dragon

1

blanket addictlast week

I think if end goals have all the problems I think they might, it'd be fine if there was exactly 1 end goal because it'd have all the same gameplay problems BUT it'd be rare and aura now

blanket addictlast week

so it's ok

blanket addictlast week(edited)

like if you have dragon egg on 3% of boards and there's no other end goals in the game it's kinda cool

pinkpufflast week

Definitely need to see more of how this plays as the season goes imo but, i do think it says a lot that there were basically no end entries in closed beta. Even the best players didnt want to do those ones.

bribitionlast week

I think the best solution is more tasks in the pool that are overlappable with any% but don't have to be
I think draftout is more interesting with more, longer route planning and strategy and that is best achieved with endgame goals be it the end or other hard/long things

blanket addictlast week

I'm unsure what stuff works for this besides stronghold stuff

Tacomonsterlast week

#Making way-arounds to end-related objectives

blanket addictlast week

you can incentivize bastions more but I think that's about the limit of what stuff ends up being actually worth overlapping with the end goals

blanket addictlast week(edited)

everything up to killing blazes there's lots of overlaps for, but there's very little for the kill blazes/find stronghold/get to stronghold/(sometimes) kill dragon phase, and I find that hard to fix

blanket addictlast week(edited)

kill silverfish is kinda the perfect goal for this but I don't know how many other goals like that work

blanket addictlast week(edited)

I also think that the goals that only require entering the end and doing something are better than the dragon kill ones generally, takes a few minutes of difficult to overlap time sink out

blanket addictlast week

like take punch end crystal, that goal is worth exactly as much as beating the game is, so it's extremely likely if you go for the overlap of beating the game your opponent will be able to take the time to craft it

blanket addictlast week

I struggle to come up with ideas for goals that can be done without going to the stronghold/end, but in ways that aren't consistently faster than how long it takes you if you're committing to going to the stronghold/end

blanket addictlast week

more goals like that would be awesome though

1

blanket addictlast week

obtain 64 mossy stone brick maybe

blanket addictlast week(edited)

kill 40 arthropods would probably fulfill those requirements but I do not like that idea

Occobolast week

scared you're gonna have to play the game you opened?

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Tacomonster7 days ago(edited)

i do think another reason to remove end objectives is that its just tedious, feinberg multiple times on stream, even being a top runner, was annoyed cause beating the game is just boring but its the optimal play

Tacomonster7 days ago

and if you get the statistics i think the end goals are probably the least chosen from drafts

plushie7 days ago

Would be interesting to see how often do both players enter the end

Tacomonster7 days ago

yeah thats the thing, end objectives rarely come down to close speedruns like mscr, and theres less suspense cause its easy to track your opponent

Sinjin7 days ago

I actually think more end goals would be good because it doesn't get much play rn and it'd be cool to see more end play, I still have yet to go to the end or even attempt to locate a stronghold in a run, and ive played 30 so far

22

Tacomonster7 days ago

i think the reason why it doesnt show up is cause people never pick it

sskammerz7 days ago

I think at the very least, they shouldnt be in quickplay. no one's getting those goals done within 30 min unless theyre hard pushing. i had a match with multiple end/stronghold related goals on the board and it just resulted in the game being super dead after all the overworld goals were done since me and my opponent knew that we couldnt realistically get them done before the time was up

4

Uniquepotatoes7 days ago

i think when goals are rotated in the future testing no end goals to see if people prefer playing that way could be an idea, but people with speedrunning experience probably like being able to make use of it by doing end stuff

1

Uniquepotatoes7 days ago

it is kinda funny to imagine people who dont speedrun and only want to play this needing to learn speedrun strats to kill the dragon for a goal thats relevant like... one in 30 games

1

TNT444OP23 hours ago

Update: after a week of draftout and 80+ matches in the top 100 i have never seen an end objective being complete.

What I have seen while playing and watching streams is speedrunners always picking the end objectives because they know they are free points for them. I absolutely don't think that the argument that "it is completely overlappable" is true.

A few times ive seen a speedrunner and a non-speedrunner with a few hard overworld objectives and a few end objectives left. The speedrunner simply kept track of which dimension their opponent was, and countered whatever they were doing. As trading for all pearls and getting enough rods was such a timesink, noone went for it until the end of the game, but if thosr goals actually end up mattering, the speedrunner is obviously faster.

This is an example of a game I was talking about - here Maw1ch fortunately got luckier exploring but those two end goals were bing_pigs' goals from the start, and disallow non-speedrunners competing with the top players.

Thanks for coming to my ted talk

TNT444OP23 hours ago(edited)

Also as feinberg said: https://www.youtube.com/live/-F-Lb-Mj2eo?t=4877

Tacomonster23 hours ago

i found this game too

Tacomonster23 hours ago

good example of end goals only happening as the very last goal and being a huge timesink

ZadikGooba22 hours ago

when end goals are on the board i just go for bastion and fortress while in the nether idk why people save all of that for 12-12

ZadikGooba22 hours ago

its already pretty good to hit the bastion for pearls for exploration

ZadikGooba22 hours ago

so if fort has any overlap its usually fine

Tacomonster22 hours ago

i mean this board didnt have fort goals so yeah

Tacomonster22 hours ago

but a lot of the time theres end goals without fort goals to overlap

blanket addict21 hours ago(edited)

because this time can be used on more urgent faster goals

blanket addict21 hours ago

on some boards this is correct

blanket addict21 hours ago

on others it is not

blanket addict21 hours ago(edited)

I feel like removing end goals will probably get tested or like more player input will be gathered or something

blanket addict21 hours ago

Forwarded

For lategame goals: I personally think they should exist, but not in a way they do right now. They certainly can be rethought in a way thats more overlappable and unique (see: break end crystal instead of place end crystal). Our ideology in general is that, the more ways to obtain a certain goal there are - the better it is.
- A lot of custom gamemodes people have suggested will certainly be added as private rooms options.
- General point: this mod isnt about Speedrunning! Its rather made with a focus put on experiencing the game and all unique mechanics it can provide. Seeds don't have to be good or fast. That should answer a lot of suggestions such as filtering for loot in structures, increasing certain drops, making seed filter buffed etc. Same reason why we will never change vanilla mechanics for certain goals to speed them up. The rates of items in loot tables are a part of game sense and judging what's worth and not worth going for in a match is a crucial part of skill required to be good at this gamemode. Top level players have been able to maintain high winrate percentages, so the skill gap is able to make RNG not decide the outcome of most matches so far.
- One last point: we are still working out the rulebook for Draftout. It is a tedious process that takes a lot of time. The things we would like to emphasize: we are heavily considering limiting the amount of external tools allowed. This still needs to be thoroughly discussed before we make any decisions. To us, Draftout is all about your decisionmaking abilities, so any aid in that regard seems to defeat the purpose of the game. For the same reason, we heavily discourage backseating. Having notes and looking up information yourself is fine.

We appreciate your suggestions and read through all of them. Please keep discussions concise and topical. A lot of great things have been suggested that we agree with and we will keep listening to what the community has to say!

blanket addict21 hours ago(edited)

based on what rowl said here and the end goals having the worst completion rates

Threadfinn21 hours ago(edited)

1) Would nerfing pearl and obi rates back to vanilla make end goals better and more accessible? This reduces the impact of prior speedrunning knowledge by encouraging either cleric or warped as alternate pearl strategies, and reduces the importance of accurate eye measuring since second portal travel is less likely. A downside is that if the end goals aren't overlapped then this just makes that final cutscene take even longer.

2) Also, adding goals that overlap with end goal progression could help them fit better. Currently there's often not much the end goals can be overlapped with, adding more could make overlaps more likely: Here's a couple I can think of that might work:
-Kill X different nether mobs: Something like this would encourage finding both a bastion and a fort already, and killing at least some blazes
-Kill a boss: (with health bar) could do dragon or wither instead
-Level up a villager to max level: Could do cleric for pearl overlap, or do an easier villager to prioritize just this goal
-Build a new portal to exit the nether: If you get 10 obi in a bastion you could complete this instantly, or wait to try and get closer to stronghold
-Hatch a happy ghast: encourages piglin bartering
-Have X different colors of beds in inventory: can then use them in the end to kill dragon
-Allow breaking bedrock for the die in void: alternative completion method

I'm not sure though whether either of these possibilities would actually help create overlaps though, or whether it would just favor speedrunners even more by giving them more goals that work with their strengths.

Threadfinn21 hours ago(edited)

Another option is if goal pool is going to be different at different ranks, lock end goals to higher ranks and also give them other difficult goals. Currently end goals are generally the slowest and have no overlap, but if there were other goals that took even longer it might encourage thinking abot the benefits of the end goal vs the others.

Tacomonster20 hours ago

Nerfing rates does not make end goals easier what

Tacomonster20 hours ago(edited)

buffing barters makes them quicker and more reliable, if you undid that, then these slower alternatives would be used

Tacomonster20 hours ago(edited)

piglin bartering is useful for many things, it’s the part of beating the game with the most overlap

Tacomonster20 hours ago

none of these goals provide unique overlap, piglin bartering is already a strong strategy, and nether has plenty of goals rewarding it

Tacomonster20 hours ago

like you said, the main issue is cause end goals are much longer than other goals, no other goal besides another end related one takes a similar amount of time without being rng

Threadfinn19 hours ago

No it definitely wouldn't be easier but it would be harder especially for speedrunners and might even the playing field a bit.

Threadfinn19 hours ago

Yeah I agree it's mainly the killing blazes and actually travelling to sh that take time.

Dale19 hours ago

I like the way you think

Dale19 hours ago

I'm not sure though whether either of these possibilities would actually help create overlaps though, or whether it would just favor speedrunners even more by giving them more goals that work with their strengths.

Rather than adding new goals, replacing some end goals with goals similar to the ones you listed (such that there is more overlap) is a way to counter this

Dale19 hours ago

that way you're not necessarily "giving speedrunners more goals that work towards their strengths"

Threadfinn18 hours ago

I agree replacing the end goals could fix the problem, but since the end is such an important part of normal minecraft progression it feels like it shouldn't be too rare to get an end goal.

Threadfinn18 hours ago

Thinking further on this, I know many people will generally prefer more pearls. However, if there are more rsg-line goals that get added, then pearl rates may have to be reduced to avoid making that the only viable strategy for some games.

Threadfinn18 hours ago

It also encourages potentially heading to stronghold without enough materials to enter end/kill dragon if there are more stronghold goals.

blanket addict18 hours ago(edited)

I agree with thinking the end feels like it should be highlighted in draftout but I don't think it quite works out in practice

blanket addict18 hours ago(edited)

I think it's just really hard to force end goals into the bingo format in the same way as the other goals, they're just inherently ultra late game and they also play similarly to eachother

Threadfinn18 hours ago

Yeah it only really works at all if there's other goals that take just as long. And the games already take long enough

blanket addict18 hours ago(edited)

I think ultra late game goals (goals that are only completed to close out a win or in the endgame) might just not fit in to draftout very well, when compared to goals that take significant commitment but that can completed in the mid game if things line up (trial chamber goals might be an example of this, the non cheesable brewing goals are often like this too), or where they're tasks with significant overlaps but that take a long time to do (kill 15 unique hostile mobs is a good example of this)

Threadfinn18 hours ago

Yeah that's probably true

Threadfinn18 hours ago

I personally like the endgame goals only because they can make a comeback easy. Which is bad overall for the game.

Threadfinn18 hours ago

Like as an example, in my last 2 games I was down in goals but if I wasn't an idiot burning myself in lava I would've won. Being down didn't matter since there were 2-3 end goals on the board. And realistically the same person is getting all of the end goals most of the time.

Threadfinn18 hours ago

You're right about this. The main issue isn't even the lack of overlap, it's that unless it's an insanely close game most end goals are going to always go to the same player since they're so closely related.

Threadfinn18 hours ago

But that might be fixed once they make the planned drafting changes if they make it so only 1-2 end goals are even possible on the same board

blanket addict18 hours ago

it's insanely rare to have more end goals than that already there's only like 8, and only 5 of those force you to go to the end the other 3 are faster in the overworld (go to stronghold, get lingering potion, punch end crystal)

blanket addict18 hours ago

I think it is just the lack of overlap while being very time consuming and letting you follow your opponent's progress, it makes for very "win more" goals that I think kinda take away from end game decision making

blanket addict18 hours ago(edited)

like "get full diamond armour" I think is pretty similar to this where unless you hit a god cave it's probably not the best goal on the board to go for until things are super late

blanket addict18 hours ago

although that one's less consistent so it's more exploration RNG than win more

Threadfinn18 hours ago

Idk if end goals are the biggest problem though overall. Because while difficult and lacking overlaps, they're at least very skill based. There's other tasks like diamond armor as you mentioned, or amethyst tasks. These can be massive time sinks with no overlaps if you just get unlucky.

blanket addict18 hours ago(edited)

I think they're different problems that'll probably get addressed over time (or maybe they'll resolve themselves there's lots of time for things to develop)

Threadfinn18 hours ago

Yeah it's still new I'm sure their testing will figure something out

TNT444OP14 hours ago(edited)

Those goals are at least fair and equal for all players, the players that can overlap them better have the advantage.

You could similarly argue, wheres the skill in dying to a bee?

Threadfinn14 hours ago

There's just not much time trying to die to bee usually, so overlapping is more important

Threadfinn14 hours ago

just finding a geode can take 15 minutes sometimes if there isn't a great ocean and you aren't lucky

Feinberg14 hours ago

I struggle to understand this fair and equal argument tbh

Feinberg14 hours ago

are you suggesting that end goals are not fair and equal to all players

TNT444OP14 hours ago

Regarding the piglin trades, I don't see why they should be boosted unless the developers specifically want speedrunning-aligned strategies to have the advantage. But this is in contradiction with rowls statement that "this mod isnt about speedrunning" and that structure loot shouldn't be filtered to promote knowledge of vanilla mechanics

TNT444OP14 hours ago

My argument is obviously biased from my standpoint, obviously they are fair in the sense that the better player gets it

Feinberg14 hours ago

ok at least you understand that then

Feinberg14 hours ago

it makes your argument a lot weaker when one of the main points that you are fighting on is just a complete skill issue

Feinberg14 hours ago

I do think you have valid points otherwise (they are long + non overlappable / no good alternate solutions)

Feinberg14 hours ago(edited)

but i would try and steer away from the notion that you want end goals gone because you are worse than pro speedrunners at them. if that was the case i would want every goal but the end ones gone

and see how that becomes a useless argument

TNT444OP14 hours ago

What I'm talking about is that they don't fit into the gamemode nicely - to me, the fun of the mode is to choose which goals to go for and in what order and do it in a faster and a smarter way than my opponent - thats something I can never do with end goals as they are always the last to be complete, and even if they end up mattering, there is a big playerbase of people who will always have the advantage

TNT444OP14 hours ago

Yeah I get your point - I'm not against goals that align with speedrunning skill in particular - i think destroy end crystal works as a goal, and if the end goals were removed I'd replace them with more bastion and fortress related goals (as someone suggested, brew a fire resistance)

Feinberg13 hours ago

yea and I dont necessarily disagree with you on that, I think its a very valid point

Feinberg13 hours ago

I would just keep the discussion around that is all

Feinberg13 hours ago

I do think the end goals could be reworked into being more attainable in different methods

1

GracefulBeauty13 hours ago(edited)

there just isn't a lot to find in the end. most things there are either only found in the end, or can be found faster in the overworld / nether if you don't beat the game first. it's hard to come up with goals that can be worth doing in the end, but not required

GracefulBeauty13 hours ago

although one possibility maybe would be "defeat a boss"

GracefulBeauty13 hours ago(edited)

or "wear a mob head" for end ship dragon head / wither skeleton skull

GracefulBeauty13 hours ago

it's still just so slow though. the average "enter end" goal completion time is 56:21 right now

Tacomonster50 minutes ago(edited)

you can also do this in ancient city with skele skull, but it would likely be more optimal to grind in the fort cause the dragon head is a much bigger time investment

Tacomonster49 minutes ago

yeah its tough to make end goals balanced in the sense that going to the end and the alternative approach are both equally good options, the end doesnt even have that much to begin with

GracefulBeauty48 minutes ago(edited)

yeah but the idea is if there are a few otherwise-hard goals you can get in the end, it might be more time efficient to beat the game for 2 goals vs grinding in the fort + grinding somewhere else with no overlap

GracefulBeauty47 minutes ago

and you also have to take into account what you think your opponent will do, so the decision making is a lot more interesting

Remove end-related objectives